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The Friendlier Thread - Does Dipping = Cleaning?
jmlanzaf
Posts: 36,223 ✭✭✭✭✭
Since the other thread was nuked by its owner, here's your chance to discuss it WITHOUT any rules or judgment.
All opinions are welcome. Chatroom chimps, professional numismatists and arrogant old codgers are all welcome.
Personally, I would prefer to state the question more accurately since of course dipping is "cleaning".
The real question would be better phrased: Is dipping ACCEPTABLE cleaning?
1
Comments
Sometimes. It depends.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
That should about cover it.
I don't think "dipping" is the most interesting "acceptable cleaning" that we could discuss. But it is the one that came up, maybe because it used to be so common.
...it’s not cleaning, get over it bro
LOL. It's definitely "cleaning" in the common meaning of the word. If you wash something, it gets cleaned. Dipping in acetone is also "cleaning". That's why I specified "acceptable".
...every time I have dipped a coin I never touched the coin physically...tongs to a basket and then dipped...that’s just not cleaning and neither is soaking in acetone...if you physically touch and rub the coin during the process then yes, it’s cleaning
So if you use tongs (instead of your hands) to place your clothes in the washing machine, you're not cleaning them?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agree. It's actually considered to be conservation.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
...unplug the washer and just soak the clothes with no abrasive movements...they aren’t getting cleaned very well now are they?
That’s still cleaning them. Some methods are better/more effective and/or more benign than others.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Well it goes without saying that I tremendously Respect you opinion @MFeld ...so it’s cleaning then, I’m ok with that though
That answer works for a number of questions that get asked here.
So if you hose the mud off your car, it doesn't get clean?
...your too late Professor, Mr. Feld already changed my tone
Well, we know who you DON'T respect around here...
I refuse to be baited by people smarter than me...I tap out fellas
Thank you and that’s whether you agree with my opinion or not.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If I do it correctly, it is dipping (light cleaning or rinsing).
If I pay PCGS to do it, it is restoration.
And almost always, both will be graded. The devil is in the "details"
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
Some guys are masterful with dip, some guys always overdo the stuff. It's an art, and a lot of people aren't artists.
This topic has been beat to death over the last decade. I thought we had consensus that dipping was cleaning.
When dipping strips the luster from a coin or imparts an unnatural look, as it does with copper, circulated, and older coins, then it is unacceptable. Call it what you wish.
"92" is the only answer on here.
If I get in the shower every morning and I just pour soapy water over me I won't stink?
Dipping was mandatory 35 years ago,
Skinny dipping was optional.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
As a nobody, I think that the "Cleaned" description should be "Cleaning damage"
The act of cleaning doesn't "details" a coin, the damage caused from cleaning it the wrong way does.
Collector, occasional seller
I never have considered dipping as cleaning but I have never dipped a coin that was below about uncirculated or uncirculated condition. One is guaranteed a totally unnatural appearance by dipping xf and lower grade coin.
Dipping is to be done carefully and only when called for.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
Entire post EDIT:
@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD I admire a man that can change his mind when confronted with facts.
Anything we do to a coin (by whatever means/method) that removes anything from its surface is some form of "CLEANING!" Any type of cleaning happens in degrees. Holding a coin with tongs under running water is a form of cleaning it.
This thread should have BEEN ANSWERED AND ENDED at the second post.
OP: "Is dipping ACCEPTABLE cleaning?"
Second post: "Sometimes. It depends."
There is no other answer! We can only complicate it with questions like - Acceptable to whom?
Without going into the weeds about personal preferences, etc., the only thing of use remaining is to discuss what "acceptable cleaning" depends on!
LOL. Close but no cigar. Cleaning is ONLY considered to be "conservation" when it is done properly and the result ranges from acceptable, through no-one-knows-it-was-cleaned, all the way to WOW!
Entire Post Edit:
@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD
Just more to add. soaking clothes will not clean them very well; however, if any dirt particles leave the fibers of the material and enter the water, they are getting cleaned.
This discussion is NOT ABOUT how well the cleaning occurs. That's the difference between what some do to coins and what a professional does to a coin. One method is proper dipping (several different steps) while the other is what 95% of the coin geniuses discussing dipping here do when they dip a coin. So sad.
I happen to like you and Respect your professional opinion also @Insider2 ...I didn’t take offense to any of your pre-edit posts...nothing on CU offends me...I love this place
Ditto, both you and CU. I was headed off to bed forty minutes ago until I checked this thread. Well, thanks for not printing my original posts as I could not believe what I was reading - especially coming from you. I'm glad the guys changed your view of cleaning. That's the important thing. Yawn and Good Night.
Maybe. But ineffective cleaning is still cleaning.
They make surfactants to clean vinyl siding that are non-contact by design. Spray on, rinse off.
Nothing in the word "cleaning" requires physical contact.
The age old debate continues.....surfaces once or twice a year. It is not that the question has not been answered... It is simply that some will not accept the answer. Then the OCD focus of most numismatists powers on and we go deep into commentary and posed situations. I will close with the old phrase - 'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.' Thank you Mr. Shakespeare....
Cheers, RickO
Cleaned/ dipped, NT, AT .... whatever we can do for cointroversy ...
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
It is what it is.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Why is artificially white ok, but artificially toned is not. Sounds racist.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Fixed it.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Yes, dipping is cleaning.
Dave
Dipping is cleaning
MS70- Also cleaning
Coin Care- Cleaning
Acetone soak- Cleaning
Anything that removes unwanted contaminates from the surface is cleaning. If I pick a coin out of the mud and rinse it off it's cleaned. If I pick a coin out of the mud and wipe it off it's cleaned and damaged.
Proper cleaning does not damage coins.
I've cleaned a number of coins, none have come back as details- cleaned.
Collector, occasional seller
Cleaning a coin should not be considered unacceptable, and if done with acetone of another "cleaner" that does not effect the natural toning of the coin is definitely acceptable. But dipping toned silver to make it blast white or dipping copper to make it bright red or orange is not cleaning. It is alteration of the coin's natural condition usually for the purpose of increasing it's value. And those coins should be details graded, which happens frequently with copper but rarely with silver.
TPG's do not seem to be able to provide uniform standards regarding copper and silver, and silver always seems to get a wink and a nod.
OINK
Yup. It totally depends
On what? one asks...
Many factors!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
If one does not like the look of the offered coin don't buy it. Unless talking about true rarities there's always another coin out there to consider for one's collection. I've been to shows where I swear every single coin in some dealer offerings appears to have been worked on in some way.
Many years ago when I was a lot more involved in metal detecting than I am now, Bob, a full-time coin dealer who I considered a mentor, showed me something that I have never forgotten. I had a few Barber dimes that I had found that I was interested in selling. I didn't do anything to the dimes in the way of cleaning them (other than washing the dirt off them) prior to showing them to Bob. One of the dimes, a better date as I recall, had very little wear but had some unsightly stains that didn't come off after I had washed it in water with mild detergent.
Bob bought the coin (almost uncirculated from a wear standpoint) from me and then proceeded to gently rub the coin between his fingers with baking soda and water. By doing this, Bob successfully removed the stains and made the coin bright. Bob told me that he could get more dollars for the coin by treating it as he did.
What did I get from Bob's lesson? Noone will ever be able to sell me a silver coin for my collection that has been CLEANED with baking soda and water, dug or not dug no matter, because "the look," although acceptable to many, is not acceptable to me.
Whoever is careless with the truth in small matters cannot be trusted with important matters.
I disagree with your statement that dipping is not cleaning. Yes, as you said, dipping is an alteration of a coin’s natural condition. But that alteration is due to (a form of) cleaning. Cleaning is cleaning, regardless of the method, the results or how any of us feel about it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Regardless our personal preference, proper dipping has improved many coins. Unfortunately improper dipping has likely ruined even more.
Recently, while examining a rare date Liberty Seated dollar in a PCGS-64+ holder the owner shared it's history. He showed me the auction images of the coin before it was dipped in a PCGS-65 holder when it realized over $50,000. Although this example still retained luster it's original skin was gone, the asking price was now less than half of it's previous price realized.
He knew the previous owner/dipper and the reason he chose to dip this coin was in hopes of upgrading it to a 66. I'm convinced that unless and until the grading companies continue to penalize dipped coins and reward coins with original skin as in this case, the dipping of original problem free coins will continue, because of the likely hood of financial gain.
How does one determine what degree of dipping is acceptable? Will the degree of dipping vary depending on the series, rarity, grade, etc.?
In the real world, it's almost impossible for a coin dealer to sell a coin with ugly toning so if he doesn't dip it he'll eventually be buried with it. People still care about eye appeal when considering a coin for purchase.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
this thread is already well on its way to be absurd. I predict that by the time it runs its course 68% of the replies will be by a handful of members who really struggle with this issue.
The real question would be better phrased: Is dipping ACCEPTABLE cleaning?
this short sentence sums up the fact that the OP knows dipping is cleaning, the addition of the adjective needed to make any discussion possible. it isn't really a question of whether dipping is cleaning, whether we can deduce if a coin has been dipped, what the "market" thinks about it or any other thing. it is apparently all about what a TPG will say and how much value can be added by the cleaning.
most collectors seem to follow down a path in their Hobby life. generally that means that they start off ignorant, become educated, move forward and mature. there are exceptions. I have seen collectors and dealers who reach a certain point that makes them money and they stop moving forward, all growth stunted. dipping is quite often a cause of that because they find a willing market of buyers.
one need only look to eBay.
In the real world, it's almost impossible for a coin dealer to sell a coin with ugly toning
said dealer shouldn't buy what he knows he can't sell.
To be fair, when you buy collections, you'll get coins you might have passed on if offered to you individually.
If a seller comes into your shop and offers you a group of Morgan dollars do you make an offer for the group or do you cherry pick the best ones and refuse to make an offer on the rest?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
we buy them all at an appropriate price if the seller is willing. the catch is that we don't very often get groups of Mint State or high grade Dollars with ugly tone, they tend to come in smaller groups or singly. if they are what usually shows up, VF and lower, we buy them and sell individually from bowls with a set price, ranging from $17 to around $28 by grade and type, Morgans/Peace/1921's, etc.
when you buy collections, you'll get coins you might have passed on if offered to you individually.
this is my boss' answer when I ask him why he buys some "junk" we end up with. I will pass on coins that he will buy, but it's his shop so he can do that if he wants to. I try to reason with him and point out the dozens of boxes of coins we have that nobody is buying but usually to no avail. again, his reasoning is that he has already profited off of the "cream" in any collection and the stuff I'm pointing out has essentially no money tied up in it.
I accept his reasoning because that model has worked well for him in the four decades he's been in business. my thinking is that we should be directing the "junk" over to our competitors so their capital gets tied up.