Speaking of gold coin hoards -- what would you have done if you unearthed a cache of 3,000+?
originalisbest
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https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2008-09-07-0809050089-story.html
-- in a cellar, during the depression, and being not of legal age. The mind wanders, but the boys who found it pretty much did what they could, IMO. Would they/did they at least pocket a few? I wouldn't blame them (either one) a bit if they had, since the claimants that surfaced were tenacious, dragging the case on for years. Of course they did... though if not for the boys' discovery, no one would have ever been the wiser. Maybe they would have been discovered decades later, as the tenement was razed to make way for other buildings. Or, maybe it would've been forever buried and never found.
In my idle moments I'd like to think if I had been there at that time, what I might have done with such a find. If I found it as a kid, or if I had found it as an adult (and been wary enough to keep the find a secret.) Certainly complicating matters was the legality of gold ownership at the time. Still fun to think about, and amazing to think how such things might still be waiting to be found; buried stashes of a rich miser, or caches made amidst the turbulence of the Civil War.
Comments
The first thing I would do is keep my mouth shut.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Being young and dumb I likely would have told someone. Now I would just KMBMS.
Knowing now how to dispose of it would make things a whole lot easier.
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The creed of cache hunters is "Never tell anyone!"..... And I totally support that....Now, if I had found such a cache of gold coins...and survived the initial shock....
I would then have to change my pants....After that, I would quietly conceal and transport the coins to a safe haven to be disposed of.... I do know how to do that. Cheers, RickO
"Loose lips sink ships"
First, I would keep quiet about the hoard. Second,I would reach out to a lawyer. Third, I'd keep some for myself and do "good" with the rest.
I feel I would be a better steward of the coins than the government or whomever else would want to take possession. Once the government gets involved, the bureaucratic process would take over and none of the coins would ever be seen from or heard of again. Not much different with a museum, which would probably lock them away for 50 years or try to conserve them.
After I had some time to pick out the best/rarest dates, I'd sell a good amount and donate the proceeds directly to some of my favorite local charities... anonymously.
I haven't decided if I would tell my wife or not
Thanks for sharing @originalisbest
Why would you ever reach out to a lawyer? The last ones to do that probably regret it.
Anyone finding the Forrest Fenn treasure would be well advise to keep their big mouf SHUT!
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That would be the day. The first skirt would have you jabbering like a mynah.
Heh! Enjoy everyone's comments, I don't disagree with any one of them. This story always stuck with me ever since hearing about it in Bowers' Coin Treasures and Hoards book. It's definitely the kind of scenario collectors dream about, and it sounds just too good to be true; might as well hit the final pitch of a tied world series out for a grand slam, with the count 3 and 2, two outs and your team down by 3!
Really, I feel badly for the two kids, that they didn't make out better, though each getting $6,000 after the coins were sold (but only once they were 21) wasn't horrible for the times, still...
If it had been just one kid, and he knew how to keep a secret (and his mother too) we never would have heard the amazing story about the discovery -- it ultimately would have become part of "old family holdings from way back" and sold only on an as-needed basis!
Anybody have specific information about which coins were included in the hoard, auction records, etc.?
Appreciate your giving me the idea to look it up!
https://allthatsinteresting.com/forrest-fenn-treasure
There is some detail out there in the couple articles I pulled up, and the sale was a public one -- betcha the Newman numismatic portal would have the details. I'll try and dig.
From the article I linked above, the story is a great one, and inspired a book (article was written in 2008.)
The Great Baltimore Gold Rush of 1934 and the woeful tale of its two instigators is the subject of a new book, Treasure in the Cellar: A Tale of Gold in Depression-Era Baltimore by Leonard Augsburger, published last week by the Maryland Historical Society.
Augsburger, 45, a Chicago telecommunications software engineer who lives in Vernon Hills, Ill., has been a lifelong coin collector.
YW
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In 1935, the 3,558 coins, divided into 438 lots, were auctioned off on May 2, 1935, at the Lord Baltimore Hotel, realizing a sale of $20,000.
I know the kids were really honest, and hoped they would greatly benefit from doing the right thing -- but I wish there had been 3,758 coins, that they had been numismatists, and had each kept about 100 really choice ones each, saying "look! We found 3,558!"
Oh well.
Image of the catalog in question (from an online bookseller) -- hopefully is represented in the NNP, but haven't confirmed that.
Aha! Found it. So cool. Having the NNP is sort of like being there back in 1935, though the very idea of attending a sale of US Gold in that era just for the joy of bidding on and collecting it, meant you were loaded. Nice thought to have.
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=510794&AuctionId=519608
Terms and conditions. Pick up your winnings, May 3rd, at the bank. Conditions were typical descriptions for auctions of that era -- group lots and pieces described as fine to very fine. Would be interesting to pedigree any specific coins back to that auction -- there were a smattering of C, D and O mints, but by and large looks like a Philly accumulation.
...the key to that story in my eyes was the misfortune of both those young boys being fatherless...if just one of them had a father to help them I feel they wouldn’t have gotten robbed for their good deed...no good deed goes unpunished...Fathers and adolescent sons need each other like peanut-butter and jelly
There was an 1856-O $20 based on that catalog! Wow.
Also four 1846-C half eagles, an 1838-C half eagle and an 1839-D quarter eagle. Impressive. Interesting time capsule that speaks to what was circulating in mid Atlantic at time hoard was buried.
More great comments -- I agree! The '56-O $20 is one I wish they'd put aside.
And yes, both boys were fatherless, nice that they had each other for friends -- and sadly, one of them died of pneumonia before he could ever reach 21 and collect his $6,000 -- his mother applied for it in his name.
Seeing though, that each boy was to get $6,000 after they turned 21, and the entire sale proceeds were $20,000, it wasn't horrible treatment financially I suppose. Still a shame they didn't see more of it.
So at an average price of $5.62 coin sold at auction did these even bring much more than face value? Was $20K a fair amount to get at auction?
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Not sure! Now interestingly, the NNP example catalog is scanned, but don't know if individual lot prices realized are available. Still, the other cover example above in the thread, original owner of that copy noted prices inside, probably in the margins. I have more digging to do!
But I have to imagine each and every lot went for face value plus the gold premium at the time, and certainly the '56-O $20 must have been the star?
According to the article above, face value was about $11,200, vs $20K realized at the sale.
The speculations ignore realities of slum families in the Depression era.,,or now.
Well, since gold was illegal to own in 1934, these boys did not have many options, neither did their parents. It would be like finding currency stolen from a bank heist. If you tried to spend it, you risked a lot more than reporting it.
I guess the lads could have held the gold until gold was legal to own again in the 1970s.
That's just it exactly, RWB! I really feel for those two boys as had they had better circumstances (say, a father who was a banker and knew the law exactly, or heck, just a father) the story could have worked out differently. As it was, they recognized their good fortune and seemed to be above board in going to the police and trying to stay on the right side of the law. But had they had a banker for a dad, had they been fairly well-off for the time, very unlikely they'd have been digging in the cellar of that tenement. Anyway -- a great story, with really not an unhappy ending, but for the kid who died before seeing 21.
U S gold coins were legal to own. Bullion (gold bars) and gold coins made after 1933 were not legal to own until 1975.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Agreed, and it really ties in to what RWB noted. Very, very few people in that 1935 scenario could have afforded to sit on such a hoard for some length of time and not said a peep. Even if they tried to sell "a few" to get a bit of cash together, there might be questions as to why they hadn't reported them during the gold recall.
There again though, your statement is in error, as gold wasn't "illegal" in '34 (or '35) else there could have been no sale -- not if it was numismatic gold. There again, had they somehow stumbled onto the hoard, but had a banking relative who really knew the score -- well!
Also interesting to think of the psychology behind finding the hoard. Gold coinage had recently been legal tender 1-2 years prior. I’ll bet they thought of it more in terms of finding approx. $11k worth of money and depositing the face value of the hoard with the bank than they did in terms of numismatic rarity. From a face value standpoint, I’ll bet they didn’t think of $6k as a terrible result.
At the time it was extremely easy to get ANY pile of US gold coins declared a "collection" and avoid problems with the anti-hoarding EOs and the Gold Act of1934. The Smithsonian Curator never rejected any US gold coin as not "of special interest, etc." He was the final authority - but ANA members were also considered experts by the USSS and Treasury.
Agreed, and I didn't even think of it in that way! $11,200 face, ultimately, they each got awarded $6K (once you turn 21, kid!) -- never mind that the sale topped 20K. I wonder, since you pointed out the '56-O $20, what that one fetched (vs the many random P-mint 20's) -- almost 100% positive neither kid was in a position to know that the '56-O was any more special than the others.
Thank you very much for the clarity, RogerB -- I know I hold your POV's on situations like this to be 100% dialed in for accuracy.
There's nothing special about currency from a bank heist is there? Unlike ransom money there usually isn't time to mark it.
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Asking for a friend!
I think you mean a horde of 2000+ coins...
"Doing the right thing" seems lost on a few posters here, and I would not want to buy a coin from them. That attitude carries over into the smallest of transactions. What are you going to do if you found $10 million worth of gold coins today? Hide from the IRS and look over your shoulder for the rest of your life? Think about it.
Let's keep in mind the kids (or their estate) ended up with more than two-thirds of the auction result, more than the face value of the coins, and $6k each in 1935 was the equivalent of $112,179.42 today.
As I noted, they made out OK, except for the kid who died before he could see his share. Nonetheless, I don't care if you ever buy a coin from me or not -- I expect you'd be pleased, but whatever -- I just like to imagine being in such a scenario. As well, this type of post (you ought to do the right thing) also rings hollow to me. Do tell, now, and I won't be super judgey -- if you find a $20 blowing around in a parking lot, and mind you, no one, not even a car is around -- do you sit and wait there for a few hours to see if the owner comes back? Similarly here, I think the boys probably could have kept the hoard with a clean conscience, had they chosen to. The ones in the story I personally find repugnant are the many who thought they'd try and lay a claim as the rightful owner of the pieces -- and you're correct, had the boys not found the cache, these people would never have known of its existence. But please judge away!
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Hmm, maybe fill a pool up with gold coins and take a swim like Scrooge McDuck?
My initial reaction shock: the universe is a simulation and the programmer smiled at me. Lucky bounce smooth sailing all the way to the end zone.
I would think one would keep it secret Security level 3 (them only) - It would be assimilated into Assets / holdings. Probably would slab (if increase sale price) / sell them piecemeal to avoid attention. The first thing one would need to do is quickly recover it / leave scene undetected. Priority - Looking out for no 1. Some might shop around bourse at shows sell for cash but careful not generate attention. It wb extra income / fun for life. Would want find safe place store, inventory, cost out until could be assimilated and review strategy. Would pull out copy “Looking out for #1” and Books on privacy, especially one on “How to hide anything.”
Goal: Assimilation and strategic action towards that end. What do you think the US govt does if recovers UFO lol. I would wager it disappears to a special non disclosed facility. Any opposition dealt with, removed / evidence eliminated from crash site.
In graduate school in an advanced Corp finance class the instructor, holding up his hand asked “Do nice guys finish last?” If recall correctly everyone in class held up their hand.
Always, unless they have some special way to mark their currency.
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I guess you'd feel better about doing the right thing by turning it over to the cops and have all or part of it disappear?
An ad in the local paper. Found: A sum of money. Identify it and it's yours.
Wanna find out who lost a million dollars worth of gold. Advertise it and find out that everybody did.
Even if it got returned to me tell me why the IRS deserves a cut?
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I am saying nothing!
I don't think that finding $20 in a parking lot is at all analogous to finding 3,558 gold coins in a house you don't own.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Thanks ever so much for being my moral police, Mark, but for me, I believe it is. Were the 3,558 gold coins left there last week by the house owner, and one could reasonably expect them to be coming back for it? Or were the 3,558 left there by a long-dead individual originally -- with no notation as to their personal ownership or heirs -- and if not for the boys' discovery, they would have been lost to the ravages of time, missed by no one? It's fun to noodle around with such things, anyway.
Obviously, I don't know the answers to your questions, but there are likely to be laws that pertain to the discovery in the house. I'm not your moral policeman, just your legal one
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
A way more interesting question would be .....
How many awesome hoards have been discovered where the finders Never said a thing ...... ???
I always wonder this when I see gold coins with saltwater damage. I think there is one particular date of NOLA eagle where there are a number of unattributed specimens with saltwater damage.
turn it over to officials and let them deal with the legal issues that come with such finds
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Keep my lips tight and to share the fortune run a couple give away contest here a couple years later