2021-CC Morgan and 2021-P High Relief Peace dollar commems??? (H.R.3757)

BackroadJunkie

Okay, let's look at this one. Coin World reports:

Legislation seeks 2021-CC Morgan dollar struck at old Carson City Mint

Legislation. (No text available yet.)
H.R.3757 - To require the Secretary of the Treasury to mint coins in commemoration of the centennial of the minting of the Morgan dollar and the Peace dollar.

Collectors could be getting a 2021-CC Morgan dollar. House Bill 3757 was introduced July 16 to authorize production of Morgan and Peace silver dollars to mark the centennial anniversary of the production transition between the two designs in 1921 — including Morgan dollars struck at the former Carson City Mint and a high relief Peace dollar.

An unspecified number of Morgan dollars from the maximum combined output of 500,000 Proof and Uncirculated Morgan and Peace silver dollars authorized in the legislation would be struck with the CC Mint mark at the former Carson City Mint in Nevada, which now houses the Nevada State Museum.

Uram said it also the intent to offer a limited-edition Coin & Currency set of 25,000 or 50,000 maximum units to include a 2021-CC Morgan dollar and an intaglio print from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing of the back of a Series 1886 $5 silver certificate. That note features the obverse of an 1886 Morgan dollar as its central vignette.

The 2021-CC Morgan dollar could be struck in Uncirculated condition, and the Proof version might be struck at the San Francisco Mint with the S Mint mark. Discussion is also ongoing concerning what finish will be on the Morgan dollar for the Coin and Currency set and at what Mint the coin would be struck.

The Proof and Uncirculated 2021 Peace dollars would be struck at the Philadelphia Mint with the P Mint mark, if things go as planned, Uram said.

I joked they should strike some coins with a CC mint mark for the "intentional rarity" the US Mint was talking about (that turned into the W quarters), but I never did think they'd actually drag a machine to Carson City... But it might happen.

This is the 2021 commem I'd get behind. Not so much the other one. ;D

There's more info in the article, since the text of the House Bill isn't available yet****. This one might be good. Time to start saving my nickels...

Hemispherical

This sounds like it might be really really interesting!

ricko

Great... I will definitely be a buyer for the 2021 CC Morgan.....Must have that for my CC series...Cheers, RickO

messydesk

In 2006, the mint pinched off the "Old Mint" commemorative dollar with a caricature of the Morgan reverse barely worthy of silver plated "tribute" coins. The quality of the 2021 coins must be not only far better than this, but also better quality than what the Chinese currently make. 1964-dated models are available for the mint to digitize much as they did for the 2009 UHR gold.

Make a coin worthy of my money, and I'll buy it.

Timbuk3

Interesting !!!

metalmeister

CC Dollars have been one of the better investments during the decline in coin prices.

johnny9434

id be interested as well in getting some. see what happens here on that

Onastone

I've been waiting for these! I knew this anniversary was coming up!!!!!

PocketArt

I'm super excited about this but at the same time I'm trying to tamp down my enthusiasm...two years is a long wait, and enough time for the mint to muck up my hopes. Should be interesting; none the less.

AlexinPA

Maybe I am confused but: Why would the mint put out a 2021 CC dollar? There was no 1921 CC dollar.
HR 3757, aka The Gain Act, I can not find the info anywhere other than:
Introduced in House (09/13/2017)

Grow American Incomes Now Act of 2017 or the GAIN Act

This bill amends the Internal Revenue Code, with respect to the earned income tax credit (EITC), to: (1) increase specified credit and phaseout percentages, (2) increase the earned income amounts and the phaseout amounts, (3) decrease from 25 to 21 the minimum eligibility age for individuals without qualifying children, and (4) allow employees to elect to receive advance payments of the EITC from employers when wages are paid.

Higashiyama

Simply to attract more attention, I assume!

Higashiyama

It is more than a bit gimmicky, given that they’d be moving equipment in from Denver or SF to strike the coins. Nonetheless, I’d be a sucker and buy a few.

johnny9434

@Higashiyama said:
It is more than a bit gimmicky, given that they’d be moving equipment in from Denver or SF to strike the coins. Nonetheless, I’d be a sucker and buy a few.

+1

AlexinPA

I wouldn't hold my breath till this 'Act' passes.

WCC

If it happens, I think it would create noticeable interest, if done "right". The 2001 Buffalo dollar was a big hit and I think it could do equally well.

jabba

They can’t crank them out at the old mint so how could they put CC on
There? now a W mint 2021 would seem more likely and fun!

PerryHall

@jabba said:
They can’t crank them out at the old mint so how could they put CC on
There? now a W mint 2021 would seem more likely and fun!

Why can't they strike them at the Carson City Mint? It's still there and is now a museum with original presses still there. The Philadelphia Mint can provide the dies and all of the planchets. It's definitely doable.

jabba

@PerryHall said:

@jabba said:
They can’t crank them out at the old mint so how could they put CC on
There? now a W mint 2021 would seem more likely and fun!

Why can't they strike them at the Carson City Mint? It's still there and is now a museum with original presses still there. The Philadelphia Mint can provide the dies and all of the planchets. It's definitely doable.

You may very well be correct, I was thinking two things
1) can they still legally use it as a branch mint or would it have to be private.
2) have the presses been modernized? I thought they where pre electricity and would they risk trying to run an antique press like that for a modern coin run?
I’m all for it if they can actually make it happen.

BackroadJunkie

@jabba said:

@PerryHall said:

@jabba said:
They can’t crank them out at the old mint so how could they put CC on
There? now a W mint 2021 would seem more likely and fun!

Why can't they strike them at the Carson City Mint? It's still there and is now a museum with original presses still there. The Philadelphia Mint can provide the dies and all of the planchets. It's definitely doable.

You may very well be correct, I was thinking two things
1) can they still legally use it as a branch mint or would it have to be private.
2) have the presses been modernized? I thought they where pre electricity and would they risk trying to run an antique press like that for a modern coin run?
I’m all for it if they can actually make it happen.

If you read the article, they plan on bringing in a press from Denver or San Francisco.

The law they're trying to pass will authorize the coin to be struck legally at CC.

jabba

You are correct sit I didn’t read the article and I shall do so because I’ve got a lot of questions!
Like will it shake the poor building apart 😬

Kudbegud

@PerryHall said:

@jabba said:
They can’t crank them out at the old mint so how could they put CC on
There? now a W mint 2021 would seem more likely and fun!

Why can't they strike them at the Carson City Mint? It's still there and is now a museum with original presses still there. The Philadelphia Mint can provide the dies and all of the planchets. It's definitely doable.

The quantity needed to fulfill orders would be prohibitive for the antique equipment at the Carson City Museum.
Dan Carr's experience could expand on this. I don't think he would recommend striking "the maximum combined output of 500,000 Proof and Uncirculated Morgan and Peace silver dollars authorized in the legislation" considering half the maximum would be Morgans ordered with the CC mint mark.

They could ship in presses to do the CC but that would not be an easy task. Tear down, crate, ship, re-set up, mint a bunch of Morgans, tear down, crate, return shipping, re-set up. All with no damage ? Yikes !

jabba

I read the article and that’s cool it will be interesting to see if they can get the logistics worked out to make it happen.

PerryHall

The mint will probably transport a coinage press to the Carson City Mint which is now the Nevada State Museum. The press they have there now is steam powered and is used to strike souvenir medals. It's probably unsuitable for the high mintages authorized for this commemorative.

blitzdude

I'm a player if I can purchase near spot. Certainly wouldn't pay outrageous mint premiums on it. $15 shipped yes, $30, no thanks!

Peace_dollar88

I would love a 2021 peace dollar.

koynekwest

As would I.

RogerB

The cost of new modeling, tooling, moving Schuler presses to Carson, security, bullion and product storage, shipping to fulfillment, security, building reconstruction to bear weight of press...did I mention security? Also, if the coin looks like the feeble mess in the US - Canada set, it's not worth the lame attempt.

The US Mint has some of the best equipment in the world, but they do not use it to produce, clear, sharp relief --- all aside from the pitiful designs. (But -- what could be expected from artists paid a tiny sum to make designs. Pay the artists -- $50,000 for one coin.

Expect the best, demand the best and reward the best.

COCollector

A Proof 2021 Peace dollar in high relief.

I'm in!

AlexinPA

IF, and I say if, the mint pulls this off can we expect another rendition of the San Francisco Old Mint Commemorative?
According to Coin News the US Mint is considering colorized coins. Wonder what's next?

Higashiyama

@AlexinPA questioned: “IF, and I say if, the mint pulls this off can we expect another rendition of the San Francisco Old Mint Commemorative?”

Very possibly, but I sure hope not! Those commemoratives were cartoonish; a big disappointment.

PerryHall

If the mint doesn't produce these coins, perhaps Dan Carr will. Dual dates (1921-2021) and a DC mintmark would be neat. Of course Dan would overstrike them on real Morgan and Peace dollars.

COCollector

@RogerB said:
The cost of new modeling, tooling, moving Schuler presses to Carson, security, bullion and product storage, shipping to fulfillment, security, building reconstruction to bear weight of press...did I mention security?...

They'll also need experienced people for set-up, operation, maintenance, troubleshooting, repair. Not to mention QA/QC. It's a personnel nightmare.

All that said, I hope the Mint's plan is to continue production at Carson City after 2021. I think it's got the potential to be hugely successful.

AlexinPA

Oh BTW: Has any body thought that the Carson City Mint no longer belongs to the US Government. It's the State of Nevada Museum. And I have my doubts that the State of Nevada is going to let anybody tear up and try to use Coin Press Number 1.

Rarity

I would love to get a few Peace high relief dollars to give out as gift 🍻

RogerB

The design on a high relief Peace dollar cannot be brought up by either the old press at the Nevada Museum, or any typical toggle press - that was clearly proven in December 1921.

All of the expenses would make this ersatz "coin" just another very expensive trinket. The idea is pleasant to contemplate until one looks at the practical details. Enjoy the coins actually made for a legitimate purpose when Carson had a real US Mint, and forget about necromancy of a dead place.

dcarr

@RogerB said:
The design on a high relief Peace dollar cannot be brought up by either the old press at the Nevada Museum, or any typical toggle press - that was clearly proven in December 1921.

All of the expenses would make this ersatz "coin" just another very expensive trinket. The idea is pleasant to contemplate until one looks at the practical details. Enjoy the coins actually made for a legitimate purpose when Carson had a real US Mint, and forget about necromancy of a dead place.

My broken sword Peace over-strikes have the same relief as a 1921 "high-relief" Peace Dollar obverse. And my reverse has TWICE the relief height of the original coin. I do them on my 1986 vintage standard US Mint coin press that has a maximum striking force of 400 tons. It is true that the old Carson City press would be strained in making something like this. But it is not a problem for a modern standard US Mint coin press.

Such a project could be done by setting up a temporary (and possibly even a mobile) coin press inside a temporary building or trailer placed on the grounds of the Carson City Mint Museum.

And just down the road in Dayton Nevada is the remnants of the former Northwest Territorial Mint assets acquired when NWTM took over the Medallic Art Company.

.

BackroadJunkie

From Coin World:

ANA rallies collectors to urge congressional support for Morgan and Peace dollars bill

The American Numismatic Association has issued a call to action for coin collectors to contact their congressional representatives to seek support for legislation calling for the production of 2021 Morgan and Peace dollars marking the centennial anniversary of the transition between the two series.

ChrisH821

I'd be a buyer for sure, but it's more likely all the scalpers will beat me to the punch. Paying multiples(>1) of issue price isn't a game that I play.

AlexinPA

From the ANA:
Legislation Authorizing 2021 Morgan & Peace Silver Dollars
to Benefit American Numismatic Association

Collectors Urged to Contact Congressional Representatives for Support

Coin collectors soon could purchase 2021-CC Morgan and Peace silver dollars that support the American Numismatic Association (ANA) and the hobby.

Legislation was introduced on July 16 (H.R. 3757) to authorize production of 2021-dated dollar coins to mark the 1921 transition from the Morgan to the Peace designs. A combined maximum production of 500,000 proof and uncirculated Morgan and Peace dollars would be authorized under the 2021 Commemorative Silver Dollar Coin Act. An unspecified number of Morgan dollars could be struck with the “CC” mintmark at the former Carson City Mint, which now houses the Nevada State Museum.

Sales of the two coins would include a surcharge of $10 per coin, 40 percent of which would be paid to the American Numismatic Association to help fund educational programs – after the U.S. Mint has recouped all of its production and associated costs. The National World War I Museum & Memorial in Kansas City also would receive 40 percent of all net surcharges, while the Nevada State Museum located in Carson City would receive 20 percent.

Now I'm having a hard time swallowing this. $10.00 per coin sounds like an Alibabba deal to me.

BackroadJunkie

@AlexinPA said:
Now I'm having a hard time swallowing this. $10.00 per coin sounds like an Alibabba deal to me.

$10 for a silver commemorative is typical. If you look at any legislation for the past decade(?), all silver $1 commems had a surcharge of $10.

It's $35 for a gold $5 coin, and $5 for a clad half. This is nothing new.

AlexinPA

@BackroadJunkie said:

@AlexinPA said:
Now I'm having a hard time swallowing this. $10.00 per coin sounds like an Alibabba deal to me.

$10 for a silver commemorative is typical. If you look at any legislation for the past decade(?), all silver $1 commems had a surcharge of $10.

It's $35 for a gold $5 coin, and $5 for a clad half. This is nothing new.

Thanks. I understand. I just haven't ever bought modern stuff.

AlexinPA

Remember this one:
The Girl Scouts of the USA will not be receiving any surcharges from the U.S. Mint because sales of the 2013-W Girl Scouts of the USA Centennial commemorative silver dollars failed to cover production costs.

This represents the first time that a recipient organization designated in commemorative coin legislation “is not eligible to receive surcharge payments due to program costs not being recovered,” Tom Jurkowsky, director of the U.S. Mint’s Office of Corporate Communications, said Jan. 2.

Sales totaled just 35 percent of the congressionally authorized number of coins for the program.

Of the maximum authorization of 350,000 coins, final but unaudited sales figures released Jan. 2 by the U.S. Mint showed a total of 123,817 coins were sold — 86,354 Proof coins and 37,463 Uncirculated coins. Coins were sold individually, with the Uncirculated coin additionally available in a Young Collector set.

BackroadJunkie

@AlexinPA said:
Remember this one:
The Girl Scouts of the USA will not be receiving any surcharges from the U.S. Mint because sales of the 2013-W Girl Scouts of the USA Centennial commemorative silver dollars failed to cover production costs.

Yes. The Girl Scout Commem may be the poster child of bad commems, but the 2014 Civil Rights commem was a worse stinker than that. (124K sold for the girl scouts vs. 87K for the Civil Rights commem. Both were only struck in silver.)

I never did hear if they got stiffed like the girl scouts, since any commemorative news was about the BBHoF coins. I think the info can be found in the annual reports, but I've never bothered to look.

BStrauss3

Have you seen the sales (or lack of) for several of the recent commems?

https://www.usmint.gov/about/production-sales-figures/cumulative-sales

Commemoratives 19CJ 2019 AMERICAN LEGION GOLD PROOF 2569 07/21/2019
Commemoratives 19CK 2019 AMERICAN LEGION GOLD UNC 2193 07/21/2019

Mintage Limit: 50,000 (across all product options)

Commemoratives 19CL 2019 AMERICAN LEGION SILVER PROOF 29827 07/21/2019
Commemoratives 19CM 2019 AMERICAN LEGION SILVER UNC 11669 07/21/2019

Mintage Limit: 400,000 (across all product options)

Commemoratives 19CQ 2019 AMERICAN LEGION COIN & MEDAL SET 9888 07/21/2019

Mintage Limit: 400,000 silver dollar, 10,000 silver medal

Commemoratives 19CN 2019 AMERICAN LEGION CLAD PROOF 16082 07/21/2019
Commemoratives 19CP 2019 AMERICAN LEGION CLAD UNC 10094 07/21/2019

Mintage Limit: 750,000 (across all product options)

These are no longer available, but I only see December 31, 2018 sales reports, not final

Commemoratives 17CA 2017 BOYS TOWN GOLD PROOF 1822 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 17CB 2017 BOYS TOWN GOLD UNC 2947 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 17CC 2017 BOYS TOWN SILVER PROOF 26085 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 17CD 2017 BOYS TOWN SILVER UNC 12234 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 17CE 2017 BOYS TOWN CLAD PROOF 17639 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 17CF 2017 BOYS TOWN CLAD UNC 15525 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 17CG 2017 BOYS TOWN 3-COIN SET 5525 12/30/2018

Commemoratives 18CE 2018 BREAST CANCER GOLD PROOF 10390 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 18CF 2018 BREAST CANCER GOLD UNC 4478 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 18CG 2018 BREAST CANCER SILVER PROOF 34553 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 18CH 2018 BREAST CANCER SILVER UNC 12521 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 18CJ 2018 BREAST CANCER CLAD PROOF 17940 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 18CK 2018 BREAST CANCER CLAD UNC 11303 12/30/2018
Commemoratives 18CL 2018 BREAST CANCER COIN & STAMP SET 4452 12/30/2018

BStrauss3

From the bill...

5(b)Mint facility
Notwithstanding section 5131 of title 31, United States Code, it is the sense of Congress that if the Secretary determines it to be feasible and cost effective, the Secretary may mint some of the coins minted under this Act at the Nevada State Museum (formerly a United States Mint facility) located in Carson City, Nevada.

6.Sale of coins
(a)Sale price
The coins issued under this Act shall be sold by the Secretary at a price equal to the sum of—

(1)the face value of the coins;
(2)the surcharge described in section 7 with respect to the coins; and
(3)the cost of designing and issuing the coins (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, overhead expenses, marketing, and shipping).

This seems to indicate that the prices of these coins will be in line with other recent commems.

and

8.Financial assurances
Except with respect to extraordinary costs associated with compliance with section 5(b), the Secretary shall take such actions as may be necessary to ensure that—

(1)minting and issuing coins under this Act shall result in no net cost to the Federal Government; and
(2)no funds, including applicable surcharges, may be disbursed to any recipient designated in section 7 until the total cost of designing and issuing all of the coins authorized by this Act (including labor, materials, dies, use of machinery, overhead expenses, marketing, and shipping) is recovered by the United States Treasury, consistent with sections 5112(m) and 5134(f) of title 31, United States Code.

Lastly, correcting something I erroneously said ATS:

31 U.S. Code § 5134. Numismatic Public Enterprise Fund

(f)Conditions on Payment of Surcharges to Recipient Organizations.—
(1)Payment of surcharges.—
(A)In general.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law, no amount derived from the proceeds of any surcharge imposed on the sale of any numismatic item shall be paid from the fund 1 to any designated recipient organization unless—
(i) all numismatic operation and program costs allocable to the program under which such numismatic item is produced and sold have been recovered; and
(ii) the designated recipient organization submits an audited financial statement that demonstrates, to the satisfaction of the Secretary, that, with respect to all projects or purposes for which the proceeds of such surcharge may be used, the organization has raised funds from private sources for such projects and purposes in an amount that is equal to or greater than the total amount of the proceeds of such surcharge derived from the sale of such numismatic item.
(B)Unpaid amounts.—If any amount derived from the proceeds of any surcharge imposed on the sale of any numismatic item that may otherwise be paid from the fund,1 under any provision of law relating to such numismatic item, to any designated recipient organization remains unpaid to such organization solely by reason of the matching fund requirement contained in subparagraph (A)(ii) after the end of the 2-year period beginning on the later of—
(i) the last day any such numismatic item is issued by the Secretary; or
(ii) the date of the enactment of the American 5-Cent Coin Design Continuity Act of 2003,
such unpaid amount shall be deposited in the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts.

In my defense, it doesn't say ADDITIONAL funds, just funds. HR 3757 says the ANA has to have raised the amount for "numismatic educational activities":

(1)Forty percent of all surcharges shall be paid to the American Numismatic Association for the purpose of numismatic educational activities.

cinclodes

I love it when the Mint issues such commemorative restrikes. However, I wish they would do them in such a way that they have the same appearance as coins that were struck in the old days. I'm not talking bag marks. I mean using the same technology to make the dies and planchets. Modern commemoratives have an unattractive fake appearance.

An idea that I had back in 2013 that would depart from the old ways (in one respect) would be to produce a restrike of the Buffalo Nickel that is identical to the original but struck in 90% silver. This would presumably allow better strikes.

COCollector

I hope these commems are 90% silver. And the same size as the originals (38.1 mm diameter).

My worry is they'll use the 1oz silver bullion planchet (40.6 mm diameter), perhaps as a prelude to a re-design of the American Silver Eagle.

BackroadJunkie

@COCollector said:
I hope these commems are 90% silver. And the same size as the originals (38.1 mm diameter).

My worry is they'll use the 1oz silver bullion planchet (40.6 mm diameter), perhaps as a prelude to a re-design of the American Silver Eagle.

All silver commems are on 38.1mm (1.5") planchets. These will probably be .999 silver. The mint switched to .999 blanks this year.

AlexinPA

This will be interesting to see.

jabba

With the .998 silver it should help hit those nice deep high reliefs.

AlexinPA

What I'm having a hard time understanding is the CC commem. It would have been more prudent for the mint to have done one in 1978. Since there wasn't a 1921 CC why would they do it now?