Hey now, Bobby Bonilla is still getting paid annually by the Mets to this day so he did pretty well for himself.
How was he able to get that kind of deal? Whoever actually agreed to it must've been beyond nuts...
My understanding is the Wilpons had a good deal of money with Bernie Madoff. His annual returns (10-15%) were consistently greater than the annuity yield that they were to pay Bonilla (8% of the notional value they owed him) so theoretically they were making a spread on the deal. However, those returns were obviously fictitious and the Mets lost tons of money. I don't think there are many deferred compensation type of deals of that type done anymore. Annuity type payments don't actually make sense for the player either for the most part.
The whole thing is one of the most Mets stories ever.
You are correct on the Wilpon/Madoff situation.
Deferrals are actually very common to this day in contracts across all sports. Both agents and players especially love the bragging rights of the "Big Number" that gets reported in the media, but by deferring, the actual present day value of the contract is much smaller. (Sometimes there are tax benefits, too.)
Just one example, Max Scherzer signed a 7 year, $210 million contract, but it's paid out as $15 million a year for 14 years. So for the first 7 years after his current deal with the Nationals expires, he'll be drawing $15 million a year, either in retirement or in addition to what some team wants to pay him as a 36 year old free agent, if he continues his career.
Ownership also loves deferred contracts because it gives them off-season bragging rights while reducing cash outlays in the current season's budget, allowing them to kick the can down the road, figuring flags fly forever, and by the time the bill comes due, they'll either be dead or have already sold the franchise for multiples of their investment and the payments will be someone else's problem.
I owned a card shop at the time and guys were ripping the crap out of Leaf Signature Series one auto per pack product and leaving the common cards with me as they didn't care about them. J.D.Drew hype went crazy, those cards went to a hundred bucks and I made a bundle on cards that cost me nothing. I asked my two big spenders if they wanted me to compensate them in some way for selling their common cards for a bundle and they told me I was the one who took the time to find them in the pile of "crap" as they called it, I should reap the rewards.
Thankfully I didnt have much into Drew because his rocket fizzled out real fast.
I think there was a Readers Write letter in a basketball Beckett where a hobby store owner was quite saddened by customers who would open packs only for Jordan and just leave the other guys there....the dealer pointing out that they could sold/traded some of those other guys for a Jordan.
Honestly, it was amazing how many guys would leave awesome cards behind. Many times I would just put the remaining cards in a five row shoe box and put it in back with the intentions of going through it and seeing what was left. The reality was that I never had the time to go through those boxes and when I closed the store I had nearly 100 5000 count boxes that I was still going through up to a few years ago. I made a healthy Ebay income selling the many numbered cards or even the rookies that were left behind. I found several awesome rookies including many Tom Brady Finest and even two Peyton Manning SP die cut rookies that I had graded that came back PSA 9's.
And it's odd you mention Drew Carey in that he was in Human Resources on his show and I am also in Human Resources and am called Drew by many as my name is Andrew. I loved his show and remember that dance scene. Perhaps I need to get myself a crew cut and some big glasses.
Personal life
As of 2008, Kevin Maas works at Charles Schwab as a financial consultant in his hometown of Castro Valley, California.
I loaded up on Kevin Mass rookie cards.
When analyzing a rookie baseball card investment, and then eighteen years later the player is working at Charles Schwab, it usually indicates that the investment probably didn't turn out very well. 😒
The first that comes to mind are Grant Hill, Jason Kidd and Glenn Robinson. Now, I certainly don't consider Hill and Kidd as commons, but their cards for the most part didn't do what I thought. I thought Hill was the next legend in the making. While their cards still have some value, not the retirement plan I'd hoped for lol. But I think a lot of that has to do with the junk wax era.
Seems easier to brainstorm Stud->Dud transition as opposed to Dud->Stud
How about some names for late blooming stars who took many professional years of below average play or at best mediocrity before escalating their game?
@Moonman said:
Aaron Judge isn't considered a bust yet is he??
Huh? Because of injury?
Too early in any case. He seems to hit when he plays!
I wouldn't say a bust, but he's not living up to the lofty expectations after his rookie season. He's already 27 and missed 3 months out of the past season and a half.
Ok since we are going there.... Wally Joyner, Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Seitzer, Mark Grace, Greg Jefferies, Kevin Mitchell, Ruben Sierra, Odibe McDowell, Vince Coleman, Mike Greenwell, Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, Mark Mcguire, Rafael Palmeiro...
Personal life
As of 2008, Kevin Maas works at Charles Schwab as a financial consultant in his hometown of Castro Valley, California.
I loaded up on Kevin Mass rookie cards.
When analyzing a rookie baseball card investment, and then eighteen years later the player is working at Charles Schwab, it usually indicates that the investment probably didn't turn out very well. 😒
Better than Les Schwab
BUYING Frank Gotch T229 Kopec Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
@perkdog said:
Ok since we are going there.... Wally Joyner, Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Seitzer, Mark Grace, Greg Jefferies, Kevin Mitchell, Ruben Sierra, Odibe McDowell, Vince Coleman, Mike Greenwell, Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, Mark Mcguire, Rafael Palmeiro...
perk- I would disagree with Will Clark. Had a very good career, sure fire hall of famer if he hadn't missed so many
games. Retired at age 36 and hit over .300 every year from age 33-36 with a great OPS+, so he could have hung on and racked up hall of fame numbers if he had chosen to.
@perkdog said:
Ok since we are going there.... Wally Joyner, Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Seitzer, Mark Grace, Greg Jefferies, Kevin Mitchell, Ruben Sierra, Odibe McDowell, Vince Coleman, Mike Greenwell, Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, Mark Mcguire, Rafael Palmeiro...
perk- I would disagree with Will Clark. Had a very good career, sure fire hall of famer if he hadn't missed so many
games. Retired at age 36 and hit over .300 every year from age 33-36 with a great OPS+, so he could have hung on and racked up hall of fame numbers if he had chosen to.
I would take it farther and say Clark is deserving of HOF.
PA are a bit on the low side, but with the money these guys make now, I am thinking a long career is going to happen less and less. Larry Walker quit when he looked like he could still hit.
Unless you want to call juicers "duds", I wouldn't call ANY of those guys duds...............at all.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@miwlvrn said:
Seems easier to brainstorm Stud->Dud transition as opposed to Dud->Stud
How about some names for late blooming stars who took many professional years of below average play or at best mediocrity before escalating their game?
The closest I ever went ‘all in’ on was Mark Prior; after he pitched that GEM vs Atlanta in the 2003 NLDS, I immediately went to the Cubs website and purchased an auto ball and added a coupla cards. Almost went for a uniform but held off after the Miami letdown.
Going all in, a buddy of mine went all in with autos and cards and uni of Kerry Wood. Not a bust, by any means, but hardly financing retirement or vacation house except maybe a smaller tent camping in Wisconsin Dells with a smaller snake.
Vinny Testaverde.....had over 200 of them at one time. Managed to unload most of them when he got slightly popular with the jets for what I paid for him
Ben Petrick.....still have almost 200 of his bowman rookies
@perkdog said:
Ok since we are going there.... Wally Joyner, Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Seitzer, Mark Grace, Greg Jefferies, Kevin Mitchell, Ruben Sierra, Odibe McDowell, Vince Coleman, Mike Greenwell, Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, Mark Mcguire, Rafael
I had all those rookies from the mid to late 80’s, thought I would be rich by now back then. Most can be had for pennies now. Should of collected basketball then.
@Stone193 said:
For those who were collecting in the early 90s...
Remember when we were buying stacks or "bricks" of cards?
This is from an old thread of mine...
A stack of Cal Eldred anyone?
Those were the good old days. I remember in college buying 50 Mark Grace and 50 Gregg Olsen 1989 Topps rookies out of SCD for 5-10 cents each.
Funny thing is I remember playing Eldred when he was at Iowa along with Tim Costo -played against them in a tournament at Texas A&M and we also played against Chuck Knoblauch as well that weekend.
_"_stevek Posts: 22,010 ✭✭✭✭✭ July 14, 2019 6:48AM
Pasted from Wiki:
Personal life
As of 2008, Kevin Maas works at Charles Schwab as a financial consultant in his hometown of Castro Valley, California.
I loaded up on Kevin Mass rookie cards.
When analyzing a rookie baseball card investment, and then eighteen years later the player is working at Charles Schwab, it usually indicates that the investment probably didn't turn out very well. 😒"
For a former athlete, that's a smart profession to get in to. I'd imagine that just like a former player turned sports agent that a former player turned financial consultant/planner has a great natural market to prospect when they hang up their cleats.
I know Dodgers pitcher Ross Stripling already has his securities license to do the same thing since the Dodgers announcers bring it up all the time. (Plus, you can look both Kevin Maas and Ross Stripling up on FINRA.org's broker check to confirm that they're both still active in the industry).
@perkdog said:
Ok since we are going there.... Wally Joyner, Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Seitzer, Mark Grace, Greg Jefferies, Kevin Mitchell, Ruben Sierra, Odibe McDowell, Vince Coleman, Mike Greenwell, Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, Mark Mcguire, Rafael Palmeiro...
perk- I would disagree with Will Clark. Had a very good career, sure fire hall of famer if he hadn't missed so many
games. Retired at age 36 and hit over .300 every year from age 33-36 with a great OPS+, so he could have hung on and racked up hall of fame numbers if he had chosen to.
I’m more or less just throwing names out there that I remember having absurd amounts of RC stacks...
@Moonman said:
What player did you go all in on ? You were sure he was a future HOFer, bought a ton of his cards. Now they are in a commons bin. Mine was Todd Heap, TE out of Arizona state, I thought he was going to be the next great TE. Dud might be a little harsh for him but his cards are not on anybody's radar now. Tell me your biggest dream turned nightmare
This goes back a bit, but Freddie Lynn. Still a HOF'er in my eyes and to this day, still my favorite Red Sox player ever.
@Moonman said:
What player did you go all in on ? You were sure he was a future HOFer, bought a ton of his cards. Now they are in a commons bin. Mine was Todd Heap, TE out of Arizona state, I thought he was going to be the next great TE. Dud might be a little harsh for him but his cards are not on anybody's radar now. Tell me your biggest dream turned nightmare
This goes back a bit, but Freddie Lynn. Still a HOF'er in my eyes and to this day, still my favorite Red Sox player ever.
Love Fred and love my Sox, but he shouldn’t even sniff Cooperstown induction. Sorry.
@Moonman said:
What player did you go all in on ? You were sure he was a future HOFer, bought a ton of his cards. Now they are in a commons bin. Mine was Todd Heap, TE out of Arizona state, I thought he was going to be the next great TE. Dud might be a little harsh for him but his cards are not on anybody's radar now. Tell me your biggest dream turned nightmare
This goes back a bit, but Freddie Lynn. Still a HOF'er in my eyes and to this day, still my favorite Red Sox player ever.
Love Fred and love my Sox, but he shouldn’t even sniff Cooperstown induction. Sorry.
Wouldn't call him a dud!!!!!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Moonman said:
What player did you go all in on ? You were sure he was a future HOFer, bought a ton of his cards. Now they are in a commons bin. Mine was Todd Heap, TE out of Arizona state, I thought he was going to be the next great TE. Dud might be a little harsh for him but his cards are not on anybody's radar now. Tell me your biggest dream turned nightmare
This goes back a bit, but Freddie Lynn. Still a HOF'er in my eyes and to this day, still my favorite Red Sox player ever.
Love Fred and love my Sox, but he shouldn’t even sniff Cooperstown induction. Sorry.
Comments
You are correct on the Wilpon/Madoff situation.
Deferrals are actually very common to this day in contracts across all sports. Both agents and players especially love the bragging rights of the "Big Number" that gets reported in the media, but by deferring, the actual present day value of the contract is much smaller. (Sometimes there are tax benefits, too.)
Just one example, Max Scherzer signed a 7 year, $210 million contract, but it's paid out as $15 million a year for 14 years. So for the first 7 years after his current deal with the Nationals expires, he'll be drawing $15 million a year, either in retirement or in addition to what some team wants to pay him as a 36 year old free agent, if he continues his career.
Ownership also loves deferred contracts because it gives them off-season bragging rights while reducing cash outlays in the current season's budget, allowing them to kick the can down the road, figuring flags fly forever, and by the time the bill comes due, they'll either be dead or have already sold the franchise for multiples of their investment and the payments will be someone else's problem.
Traded several 9 pocket sheets of "pretty good" players back in 1985 (1983 Gwynn, Sandberg and Boggs) for 1 cant miss legend, Dwight Gooden.
Honestly, it was amazing how many guys would leave awesome cards behind. Many times I would just put the remaining cards in a five row shoe box and put it in back with the intentions of going through it and seeing what was left. The reality was that I never had the time to go through those boxes and when I closed the store I had nearly 100 5000 count boxes that I was still going through up to a few years ago. I made a healthy Ebay income selling the many numbered cards or even the rookies that were left behind. I found several awesome rookies including many Tom Brady Finest and even two Peyton Manning SP die cut rookies that I had graded that came back PSA 9's.
And it's odd you mention Drew Carey in that he was in Human Resources on his show and I am also in Human Resources and am called Drew by many as my name is Andrew. I loved his show and remember that dance scene. Perhaps I need to get myself a crew cut and some big glasses.
As a Seattle sports fan many come to mind. Dave Fleming, Marc Newfield, Dan McGwire, Rick Mirer, Robert Swift...
Wrestling - Danielson - Storm - Tajiri
Pasted from Wiki:
Personal life
As of 2008, Kevin Maas works at Charles Schwab as a financial consultant in his hometown of Castro Valley, California.
I loaded up on Kevin Mass rookie cards.
When analyzing a rookie baseball card investment, and then eighteen years later the player is working at Charles Schwab, it usually indicates that the investment probably didn't turn out very well. 😒
The first that comes to mind are Grant Hill, Jason Kidd and Glenn Robinson. Now, I certainly don't consider Hill and Kidd as commons, but their cards for the most part didn't do what I thought. I thought Hill was the next legend in the making. While their cards still have some value, not the retirement plan I'd hoped for lol. But I think a lot of that has to do with the junk wax era.
But Grant Hill made the HOF, did he not?
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
Eric Davis I thought he would have been a great one.
I collect hall of fame rookie cards, https://www.instagram.com/stwainfan/
Mike Greenwell & Carlos Quintana 😩⚾️
Seems easier to brainstorm Stud->Dud transition as opposed to Dud->Stud
How about some names for late blooming stars who took many professional years of below average play or at best mediocrity before escalating their game?
Jerome Walton all the way...OK, and also SHADOWHAWK from Image comics....think i have 50 of the first edition....
Aaron Judge isn't considered a bust yet is he??
Huh? Because of injury?
Too early in any case. He seems to hit when he plays!
I wouldn't say a bust, but he's not living up to the lofty expectations after his rookie season. He's already 27 and missed 3 months out of the past season and a half.
Ok since we are going there.... Wally Joyner, Will Clark, Daryl Strawberry, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Seitzer, Mark Grace, Greg Jefferies, Kevin Mitchell, Ruben Sierra, Odibe McDowell, Vince Coleman, Mike Greenwell, Mo Vaughn, Jose Canseco, Mark Mcguire, Rafael Palmeiro...
Better than Les Schwab
Looking to BUY n332 1889 SF Hess cards and high grade cards from 19th century especially. "Once you have wrestled everything else in life is easy" Dan Gable
perk- I would disagree with Will Clark. Had a very good career, sure fire hall of famer if he hadn't missed so many
games. Retired at age 36 and hit over .300 every year from age 33-36 with a great OPS+, so he could have hung on and racked up hall of fame numbers if he had chosen to.
I would take it farther and say Clark is deserving of HOF.
PA are a bit on the low side, but with the money these guys make now, I am thinking a long career is going to happen less and less. Larry Walker quit when he looked like he could still hit.
Unless you want to call juicers "duds", I wouldn't call ANY of those guys duds...............at all.
Wade Boggs jumps quickly to mind.
The closest I ever went ‘all in’ on was Mark Prior; after he pitched that GEM vs Atlanta in the 2003 NLDS, I immediately went to the Cubs website and purchased an auto ball and added a coupla cards. Almost went for a uniform but held off after the Miami letdown.
Going all in, a buddy of mine went all in with autos and cards and uni of Kerry Wood. Not a bust, by any means, but hardly financing retirement or vacation house except maybe a smaller tent camping in Wisconsin Dells with a smaller snake.
Vinny Testaverde.....had over 200 of them at one time. Managed to unload most of them when he got slightly popular with the jets for what I paid for him
Ben Petrick.....still have almost 200 of his bowman rookies
ive never even heard of Ben Petrick
Ron Gant
I had all those rookies from the mid to late 80’s, thought I would be rich by now back then. Most can be had for pennies now. Should of collected basketball then.
Those were the good old days. I remember in college buying 50 Mark Grace and 50 Gregg Olsen 1989 Topps rookies out of SCD for 5-10 cents each.
Funny thing is I remember playing Eldred when he was at Iowa along with Tim Costo -played against them in a tournament at Texas A&M and we also played against Chuck Knoblauch as well that weekend.
KC
Thanx for sharing Keith.
Got any pics?
_"_stevek Posts: 22,010 ✭✭✭✭✭ July 14, 2019 6:48AM
Pasted from Wiki:
Personal life
As of 2008, Kevin Maas works at Charles Schwab as a financial consultant in his hometown of Castro Valley, California.
I loaded up on Kevin Mass rookie cards.
When analyzing a rookie baseball card investment, and then eighteen years later the player is working at Charles Schwab, it usually indicates that the investment probably didn't turn out very well. 😒"
For a former athlete, that's a smart profession to get in to. I'd imagine that just like a former player turned sports agent that a former player turned financial consultant/planner has a great natural market to prospect when they hang up their cleats.
I know Dodgers pitcher Ross Stripling already has his securities license to do the same thing since the Dodgers announcers bring it up all the time. (Plus, you can look both Kevin Maas and Ross Stripling up on FINRA.org's broker check to confirm that they're both still active in the industry).
I’m more or less just throwing names out there that I remember having absurd amounts of RC stacks...
Anyone remember this Home Improvement episode about investing in baseball cards? This was from 1993 though, a bit late from the peak...
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
This goes back a bit, but Freddie Lynn. Still a HOF'er in my eyes and to this day, still my favorite Red Sox player ever.
Love Fred and love my Sox, but he shouldn’t even sniff Cooperstown induction. Sorry.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Wouldn't call him a dud!!!!!
Me neither!!
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox