Home World & Ancient Coins Forum

What would you grade this 1737 4 reales ?

bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

I think it will grade XF 40 .

I will give it to PCGS for grading.

They have only graded one coin of this date.
A VF 30.

Gilboy says the date is scarce.

I will post the grade when it comes back from PCGS


I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




Comments

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tritto!

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    VF30 but no more. Not close to XF.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • BillDugan1959BillDugan1959 Posts: 3,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It strikes me as a very desirable coin; it might not make OP's desired grade.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would call the obverse (Globe side) a VF30 and the reverse (Crest) a 35, net 35.

    I love 4R's, most collectors of US coins don't realize that the variety and availability of 50c pieces is directly related to the scarcity of 4R's and relatedly, the scarcity of early quarters is related to the plethora of Spanish 2R's.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Boosibri said:
    I would call the obverse (Globe side) a VF30 and the reverse (Crest) a 35, net 35.

    I love 4R's, most collectors of US coins don't realize that the variety and availability of 50c pieces is directly related to the scarcity of 4R's and relatedly, the scarcity of early quarters is related to the plethora of Spanish 2R's.

    My favorite denomination too. It's the scarcest for Peru and Mexico though not for Bolivia and Guatemala.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 27, 2019 10:17PM

    @Boosibri said:
    VF35

    @TwoKopeiki said:

    @Boosibri said:
    VF35

    Ditto.

    @291fifth said:
    VF30 but no more. Not close to XF.

    @amwldcoin said:
    Tritto!

    Just saw this GTG so I'm late to post my opinion: VF-30 MAX. I'm glad the OP got the grade. The problem as I see it is this. If you don't know what an XF 18th Century 4 Rls. coin looks like - lots of original luster and virtually all of its minor detail - anything goes. So VF's may appear to be XF's. I'd like to see what this would be graded as a raw coin in a major European auction. Perhaps my opinion would be changed.

  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree it is not close to XF

    Yorkshireman,Obsessed collector of round, metallic pieces of history.Hunting for Latin American colonial portraits plus cool US & British coins.
  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 7:05AM

    Well I saw in hand and so did PCGS ! :)

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm glad you got the grade you thought it was going to grade. Not having seen it in-hand, I would still grade it what I did. At the end of the day VF30-VF35-XF40 price spread on this coin should be pretty tight, anyway.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 10:07AM

    @bidask said:
    Well I saw in hand and so did PCGS ! :)

    As you have posted, you asked for opinions and all of us replied from just an image so what do we know? Opinion are meaningless unless they are backed by Professionals at a TPGS.

    Nevertheless, please READ MY POST again.

    BTW, we all know what often occurs when a coin's owner is the grader. :)

    Enjoy your XF. It is an attractive piece graded XF by long-time professionals in 18th Century Mexican coins.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PS You have a very unusual coin. Grade aside, perhaps, it is an unlisted variety. Note that the punches used for the "Mo" look completely different. Usually they match!

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    PS You have a very unusual coin. Grade aside, perhaps, it is an unlisted variety. Note that the punches used for the "Mo" look completely different. Usually they match!

    Did not notice . Thanks

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here are some graded examples from Heritage:

    VF30

    VF35

    XF40

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 3:11PM

    @MasonG said:
    Here are some graded examples from Heritage:

    VF30

    VF35

    XF40

    Are those suppose to be 4 reales ?
    Edited to add those NGC graded.

    I think the one I own is the only xf 40 and a top pop at PCGS.

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,268 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited September 28, 2019 4:08PM

    They are all 4 reales, different dates. For 1737, NGC has graded 2 XF40s and 1 AU50.

    edited to add...

    NCG has graded about twice as many pillars as PCGS.

  • Senator32Senator32 Posts: 405 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Regardless of the grade, really nice Pillar 4R. Nice examples of those are unicorns.

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @Boosibri said:
    VF35

    @TwoKopeiki said:

    @Boosibri said:
    VF35

    Ditto.

    @291fifth said:
    VF30 but no more. Not close to XF.

    @amwldcoin said:
    Tritto!

    Just saw this GTG so I'm late to post my opinion: VF-30 MAX. I'm glad the OP got the grade. The problem as I see it is this. If you don't know what an XF 18th Century 4 Rls. coin looks like - lots of original luster and virtually all of its minor detail - anything goes. So VF's may appear to be XF's. I'd like to see what this would be graded as a raw coin in a major European auction. Perhaps my opinion would be changed.

    To answer your question, I think a Spanish auction firm would probably grade it MBC or VF. Others, I do not know. The OP coin is a nice one but doesn't have the details of an XF to me. I'd still be happy to have it in my collection though, as the color and surfaces are much better than usually seen..

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    On boy sure is a lot if pushback on the grade given by PCGS ?!

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • jgennjgenn Posts: 735 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2019 8:20PM

    We all need such good luck in grading and, hopefully, auction results!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    On boy sure is a lot if pushback on the grade given by PCGS ?!

    Since your personal grade is identical to that of the major TPGS, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Every other OPINION that you asked for means nothing!

    If I owned that coin, I'd grade it AU-50 and be mad as heck at the XF grade they gave it :s

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2019 3:50PM

    @bidask said:
    On boy sure is a lot if pushback on the grade given by PCGS ?!

    I find the TPGs to be inconsistent on their grading of pillar coinage, though I think PCGS grades more conservatively than NGC from the coins I have seen. This is mostly in on-line images since I own this design in low proportion in a PCGS holder. Of the 63 pillars in a slab I own, seven are PCGS.

    The reason for this is because I have only submitted to NGC (that's who I started with and stick with out of habit) and NGC has graded a lot more proportionately, so PCGS coins don't show up for sale as often. I also hardly ever buy the 8R which are a lot more common in both holders.

    Below is an image of my 1772 Peru PCGS XF-45 4R. You can compare it to yours and let me know what you think. I only have the auction image but it's reasonably accurate of the coin's actual appearance. It's somewhat lighter than the image.

    https://www.icollector.com/PERU-Carlos-III-1759-1788-AR-4-reales-1772-LM-PCGS-EF45_i33091041

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is a very nice original peru 4 reales you have WCC.

    I wonder if the dies were different between the two ?

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭

    very nice 1772

  • WCCWCC Posts: 2,349 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 18, 2019 8:27PM

    @bidask said:
    That is a very nice original peru 4 reales you have WCC.

    I wonder if the dies were different between the two ?

    To be accurate, the coin is not as nice as the image. I wish it was, especially as the image in the slab. It's a nice coin but the crown side is quite a bit lighter.

    To your question, I presume so especially given the elapsed time between the two dates. I have never performed a date analysis but noticed a long time ago that the shape of the continents in the globes differs quite a bit by date.

    Concurrently, it appears to be an important factor in the level of detail present even in a good strike. It isn't unusual for me to read an auction description where the cataloguer states "sharply struck" or words to this effect but the detail on the coin isn't really close to being full by my standards. It might be a full strike but the die wasn't cut with full details. Coins with "full globes" as with recognized full strikes in US coinage (FS nickels, FB dimes) are very unusual.

Sign In or Register to comment.