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ID this characteristic

Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited June 19, 2019 10:34AM in U.S. Coin Forum

You don't need to see the entire coin to get the correct answer. The poll is anonymous so all should take a guess. Hopefully the old-timers and advanced collectors will not add their answer until tomorrow. Then you can post the reason for your answer. Thanks.

ID this characteristic

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Comments

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Die Clash! :p

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It appears one of the advanced collectors has answered correctly.

    So, perhaps @amwldcoin will now take the time to describe the evidence in the image he used to make the correct determination.

  • Aspie_RoccoAspie_Rocco Posts: 3,259 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019 11:12AM
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Die clash....and some extraneous PMD...Cheers, RickO

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Die clash and an interesting one at that!

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I shouldn't need to explain! It's obvious there are motif's transferred to the die!

    @Insider2 said:
    It appears one of the advanced collectors has answered correctly.

    So, perhaps @amwldcoin will now take the time to describe the evidence in the image he used to make the correct determination.

  • StuartStuart Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Die Clash


    Stuart

    Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal

    "Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019 4:22PM

    @amwldcoin said:
    I shouldn't need to explain! It's obvious there are motif's transferred to the die!

    @Insider2 said:
    It appears one of the advanced collectors has answered correctly.

    So, perhaps @amwldcoin will now take the time to describe the evidence in the image he used to make the correct determination.

    :) Perhaps You should let the less knowledgeable members answer first. I'll bet many don't even know what a die clash is or the meaning of "motif's." :p

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2019 4:50PM

    Consider this coin. It's a favorite of mine:

    image

    If you look closely at the obverse, you'll see funny stuff in the fields that shouldn't be there. Also, it looks like there's a little ribbon or wreath sprouting from the top of Liberty's head.

    What you're seeing are impressions from the wings of the eagle and the wreath under the eagle's base. How did they get there?

    If you consider US coins, you'll notice that the reverse design is "upside-down" when compared to the obverse image. When the dies are aligned in the coin press, they're 180 degrees rotated with respect to each other. If in 1795 you accidentally cranked down on the screw press without a planchet, the dies would come in contact with each other. One die is inevitably harder than the other and is you squish hard enough (as you would to strike a coin) the harder die (reverse in this case) will transfer some of its design to the softer die. Remember, on the die, the highest points are the fields and the lowest points are the lettering and portrait. That's why clashed die details usually (but not always) show up in the fields of the coin.

    On this coin, this overlay might help you see how the clash happened:

    image

    Now it's pretty easy to see why Liberty has stuff sprouting out of her hair and upside down wings from under her chin and the back of her head.

    From then on, every coin struck from this die pair imparted its new details onto every single coin that was made. In 1795, they certainly noticed it but just went with it. Preparing a replacement set of dies was a rather labor-intensive process. In the 1900s they often noted the problem and tried to repair the die. This is common on Peace dollars, for example where you can often find die-polish lines and such.

    image

    Here, you can see polish lines in an area of the Peace dollar from such a repair. One the Peace dollar, the line of Liberty's neck lines up with the shoulder of the eagle and this is a common place to see clash marks. The clash mark is no longer evident, but evidence of the repair remains, and was imparted to every coin minted with this reverse die until it was retired.

    Here's another example on a different coin behind the neck and hair bun:

    image

    I have a Peace dollar overlay, but I'll need to post it when I get home late tonight.

    On some coins, clashed dies were so common that it's almost unusual to see coins without a clash. Certain issues of 3-cent nickels and gold dollars come to mind.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BryceM

    I think we all thank you for this post. I hope they put it in "Best of...!"

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    OK, here's the Peace dollar overlays. These are for 1921 coins, but it's not so different for the 1922-1935 coins. Die rotation will affect this a bit and a great many coins are minted with the dies slightly out of perfect alignment.

    image

    image

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's one more Peace dollar "thing" that I thought, for a brief moment, to be a new VAM. It turns out it's just a pretty common clash mark. From the overlays can you see why a clash mark would easily happen in this location?

    image

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And, because I'm bored, another high-grade coin with THE classic eagle shoulder clash mark:

    image

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh ...... the star ....... so faintly but beautiful star <3

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