Mount Rushless
dallasactuary
Posts: 4,333 ✭✭✭✭✭
We discussed the Mount Rushmore for each MLB team recently, and for some teams it was pretty obvious who should be there, and there was some nit-picking about which team could lay credit to a player who had played for multiple teams.
What I've done, for each franchise that has existed since at least the original expansion in the early 1960's, is create a top 4 based on the following rules:
- No Hall of Famers (that's why it's Mount Rushless, not Mount Rushmore)
- The team that can claim a player is the one for which the player played the most (that was occasionally tricky, but not a big deal)
- I only considered what a player did for the team that can claim him. For example, Jim Kaat gets claimed by the Twins, but so much of his career value was with other teams, that he doesn't make the Twins Mount Rushless.
- No certain cheaters, and with few exceptions I limited this to players whose careers ended in the 20th century (only exceptions were for players who played briefly into the 2000's, but whose place on the mountain was already secured by then).
- I considered actual career value only; no peak, no what-ifs about war years, etc.
- As always, I did this for my own amusement, so bitch all you want about rules 1 through 5 - I don't care.
I'm going to list them in order, top to bottom, by overall quality of the four players:
- Detroit Tigers: Lou Whitaker, Bill Freehan, Bobby Veach, Dick McAuliffe (replacing Norm Cash by popular demand)
- Chicago Cubs: Stan Hack, Mark Grace, Phil Cavarretta, Charlie Root
- New York Yankees: Bernie Williams, Don Mattingly, Roy White, Willie Randolph
- Dodgers: Willie Davis, Gil Hodges, Jim Gilliam, Steve Garvey
- Washington Senators/Minnesota Twins: Clyde Milan, Tony Oliva, Mickey Vernon, Kent Hrbek
- Philadelphia Phillies: Sherry Magee, Roy Thomas, Dick Allen, Johnny Callison
- Pittsburgh Pirates: Wilbur Cooper, Tommy Leach, Babe Adams, Sam Leever
- Boston Red Sox: Dwight Evans, Dom DiMaggio, Rico Petrocelli, Reggie Smith
- Houston: Jose Cruz, Cesar Cedeno, Jim Wynn, Bob Watson
- Giants: Larry Doyle, George Burns, Will Clark, Art Fletcher
- Cincinnati Reds: Dave Concepcion, Vada Pinson, Heinie Groh, Bucky Walters
- St. Louis Cardinals: Ted Simmons, Ken Boyer, Curt Flood, Ray Lankford
- Athletics: Bert Campaneris, Sal Bando, Bob Johnson, Eddie Rommel
- St. Louis Browns/Baltimore Orioles: Boog Powell, Ken Singleton, Brady Anderson, Harland Clift
- Braves: Dale Murphy, Wally Berger, Tommy Holmes, Fred Tenney
- Chicago White Sox: Minnie Minoso, Billy Pierce, Fielder Jones, Doc White
- Cleveland Indians: Mel Harder, Al Rosen, Kenny Lofton, Hal Trosky
- Washington Senators/Texas Rangers: Frank Howard, Juan Gonzalez, Jim Sundberg, Toby Harrah
- Angels: Jim Fregosi, Tim Salmon, Bobby Grich, Frank Tanana
- New York Mets: Daryl Strawberry, Howard Johnson, Jerry Koosman, Dwight Gooden
There are some very good players who didn't make any list; if you think someone is missing, most likely they had several quality seasons for another team. I figured, why would any team erect a monument to someone for playing well for a different team?
And I didn't do any of the later expansion teams because they would have been pretty bad (possible exception, Royals). As it is, 3 of the 4 earlier expansion teams are the bottom three on the list.
Comments
Quality thread DA. I'll mull over it further later in the day.
Shorter career, but how about Bob Allison over Clyde Milan? Senators/Twins.
I would remove Dimaggio and petrocelli and add Nomar and Clemens to the red sox list
Varitek had good value from the catcher position, but I dont know who I would remove from the list to add him.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I would also add Fred Mcgriff to the Braves. he had more career PA for them than any other team
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Clemens falls under the "cheater" disqualification.
Nice to see Freehan get some love. I think he belongs in the Hall. Not sure I'd put Veach or Cash in there. I think I would replace one of those two with Mickey Lolich.
Also, in the case of Norm Cash, he's a confessed cheater during his massive 1961 season.
What did he do?
https://www.detroitathletic.com/blog/2010/07/28/stormin-norman-and-the-corked-summer-of-61-3/
After he retired, Cash was featured in an article in Sports Illustrated where he demonstrated, with multiple photos, how he corked his bats.
I did not know that!
You answered your own question; Allison's career was just too short. Now, he would have made a lot of other teams' top 4 had he played for them, but the Senators/Twins have a strong group.
Nomar played far too few games for the Red Sox to supplant either of those guys, and Clemens doesn't make my lists because he was a cheater. I didn't consider Veritek because he was too recent.
The Braves do get to claim McGriff, but McGriff only played five years for them; he isn't even close to the top 4 in career Braves value.
I'm not sure I'd put Cash or Veach in either, but I do think they are legitimate contenders. Lolich was very close to the top 4; subtracting just the little bit of his career away from Detroit, though, left him short. Cash is firmly in the top 4, even if you completely zero out his 1961 season.
This has been addressed adnauseam. There is no evidence Clemens cheated. I really don't want to hash it out again, you can search and find the old thread. There is nothing there.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
There is no evidence Clemens cheated. Brady Anderson is on your list?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Amen, and I have no intention of addressing it any further so if you really want to hash it out again I am not your huckleberry.
Wait, you're deducting points for Tigers rankings for Lolich's time NOT in Detroit? I think I'd put Lolich over Veach.
As for Cash, you said no cheaters at all but you're including him. I have no problem with him in the top 4 just double-checking you against your own rules "No certain cheaters". Cash most definitely was one of those.
Also, I love this concept of "top guys just under HOF level". Great topic.
Pirates.... Dave Parker
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Yankees that were maybe overlooked:
Elston Howard
Ron Guidry
Hank Bauer
Bob Meusel
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
That's Rule No. 3; these lists would be very different without that rule. But, again, why would Atlanta, for example, erect a monument to Fred McGriff for what he accomplished on the Blue Jays? So I only counted what the player did for the team for which he played the most.
Parker would have easily been the top Pirate had he played his entire career there, but he actually only played a bit more than half his career there. He was still close to making the top 4, but fell a little short.
Not overlooked, just didn't make it. There is a solid case that some or all of these guys were "better" than one or more of he four who made the mountain, but they all had relatively short careers. Mattingly had a relatively short career, too, but he was a heck of a lot better when he did play than any of the players you mentioned, or the others on the mountain with him.
Bounce him and add Willie Horton.
I'm ok with that, too.
I think I liked the idea of having four HOF candidates on the same team and it led me astray in my treatment of cheaters. So I will bounce Cash. The thing is, Willie Horton isn't next in line, Dick McAuliffe is. Horton was a better hitter, but he was also a godawful outfielder, and even McAuliffe - no Gold Glover - added a lot more value to the Tigers with his fielding than Horton did.
Elston Howard was a better player, made 12 All Star games, won an MVP and deserves the spot more than Roy White.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
But Willie has a statue and a record and the ladies in the stands would yell "knock that ball silly, Willie!"
Elston Howard was beloved and made the AS game even in seasons - 1957 and 1960 really jump out, and 1965 must have been some kind of joke - when he was downright terrible, and he won the AL MVP in 1963 because someone had to even though nobody had an MVP-worthy season that year (White's 1970 season was much better). If you have any doubt that Howard was receiving sentimental support vastly in excess of his actual ability, check out 1967; Howard came in 17th in the MVP voting despite having a season that is a legitimate candidate for worst season ever.
In any event, if a Yankee gets bumped the first to go would be Randolph, not White.
I’d bump Randolph for Howard, personally. Bernie and Donnie work for me. Still think Bauer may deserve it over White, too.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
Roy White played 1,881 games for the Yankees with an OPS+ of 121; Bauer played 1,406 games with an OPS+ of 116. White's career win probability added is 27.9, Bauer's is 9.6. White stole 233 bases at a 70% rate, Bauer stole 50 at a 60% rate. They were both about average outfielders but all the stats say White was better. White was significantly better in the postseason than Bauer. There is nowhere to turn to find a meaningful advantage for Bauer. White was better than Bauer, and it's not at all a close call.
I would be fascinated to find out which specific mental defect afflicts you. I based that statement, by the way, on the identical metrics that you used to demonstrate that Brett was better than Schmidt in the postseason. I did that intentionally so that you would either have to agree or make a fool of yourself. It's why you constantly choose to make a fool of yourself that I can't figure out. If you'd like to double down on your idiocy, by all means explain why Bauer (OPS of .678, WPA of 0.06) was not only better than White (OPS of .817, WPA of 0.67), but so much better that it sent you into an extended spasm of laughter.
Postseason stats don't matter; I posted about White's and Bauer's just to see if it would get a rise out of you. Since you have nothing else of value to offer this forum, surely you can't begrudge me that. Besides, it obviously worked.
I will admit that what I was hoping you'd do - and what I thought you were doing - was disagree that White was better since you disagree with me even when I make blindingly obvious statements like center fielders are better outfielders than left fielders. But I'll settle for the reaction I did get out of you; what's the fun of having a stalker if you can't play with him?