Heads Up on PWCC Auction for a 1993 SP Jeter Graded 9 MT

DotStore · June 14, 2019 4:13AM

Heads up on a PWCC Auction for a 1993 SP Jeter graded 9 MT

This card has a line running the entire length of the card from Top to Bottom. I can only describe it as looking like the foil is raised without any glue under the foil to adhere it to the card underneath.

It is eBay Item# 401782065432

Here are some pictures of the flaw. I took these pictures and provided them to PWCC when I returned this card to them.

HighGradeLegends · June 14, 2019 7:19AM

Yikes

craig44 · June 15, 2019 4:26AM

Isn't this the card that was returned to pwcc for just this issue? If so, Brent knows there is a problem and refused to be forthcoming with that defect. Shady shady business practices

Jimmy_Commonpants · June 15, 2019 4:56AM

@craig44 said:
Isn't this the card that was returned to pwcc for just this issue? If so, Brent knows there is a problem and refused to be forthcoming with that defect. Shady shady business practices

I remember the thread about that card too, though I don't know if its the same one.

wrestlingcardking · June 15, 2019 6:03AM

Does it have a low end sticker attached to it though?

DotStore · June 15, 2019 6:56AM

@craig44 said:
Isn't this the card that was returned to pwcc for just this issue? If so, Brent knows there is a problem and refused to be forthcoming with that defect. Shady shady business practices

Yes this is the same card. I provided a description of the defect and these pictures to PWCC when I returned the card. They relisted it after knowing the line is on the card, and their opinion/description for the auction (same as when I bought it)

The offered SGC 9 is simply stunning with glistening surfaces and clear imagery. Shows rock-solid corners with blemish free borders and wonderful registration. A sound investment commodity which commands attention.

GoDodgersFan · June 15, 2019 7:26AM

This defect should be disclosed by the seller. Disappointing for sure.

doubledragon · June 15, 2019 8:04AM

"The more things change, the more they remain the same."

Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr

PaulMaul · June 15, 2019 9:34AM

@GoDodgersFan said:
This defect should be disclosed by the seller. Disappointing for sure.

Just to play devil’s advocate, what do you think PWCC’s responsibility is in this regard more generally? If they receive a card on consignment that just looks like a crappy example of the grade, should they disclose that?

In fact, they actually refused to auction a card of mine that had a defect they felt was not appropriate for the grade, so they do in fact do that. I was kind of surprised when they did it with my card, because PSA graded it that way, and as everyone here points out, PWCC is not in the grading business.

I’m just not sure what PWCC’s role should be in determining whether a TPG’s grade is accurate.

lawnmowerman · June 15, 2019 9:46AM

@PaulMaul said:

@GoDodgersFan said:
This defect should be disclosed by the seller. Disappointing for sure.

Just to play devil’s advocate, what do you think PWCC’s responsibility is in this regard more generally? If they receive a card on consignment that just looks like a crappy example of the grade, should they disclose that?

Seeing how they talk up the good points of high grade examples and use their nifty little designations, if they choose to sell a card with a defect, then yes it should be mentioned. Unfortunately dollar signs cloud some seller's vision.

PaulMaul · June 15, 2019 9:59AM

@lawnmowerman said:

@PaulMaul said:

@GoDodgersFan said:
This defect should be disclosed by the seller. Disappointing for sure.

Just to play devil’s advocate, what do you think PWCC’s responsibility is in this regard more generally? If they receive a card on consignment that just looks like a crappy example of the grade, should they disclose that?

Seeing how they talk up the good points of high grade examples and use their nifty little designations, if they choose to sell a card with a defect, then yes it should be mentioned. Unfortunately dollar signs cloud some seller's vision.

But every card has defects. That is the purpose of A TPG grading it. I do think their stickers are stupid, but I’m not sure how it is their responsibility to second guess TPG’s grade.

lawnmowerman · June 15, 2019 10:04AM

@PaulMaul said:

@lawnmowerman said:

@PaulMaul said:

@GoDodgersFan said:
This defect should be disclosed by the seller. Disappointing for sure.

Just to play devil’s advocate, what do you think PWCC’s responsibility is in this regard more generally? If they receive a card on consignment that just looks like a crappy example of the grade, should they disclose that?

Seeing how they talk up the good points of high grade examples and use their nifty little designations, if they choose to sell a card with a defect, then yes it should be mentioned. Unfortunately dollar signs cloud some seller's vision.

But every card has defects. That is the purpose of PSA grading it. I do think their stickers are stupid, but I’m not sure how it is their responsibility to second guess PSA’s grade.

True but imo, if they're going to talk up the good points, then in order of fairness, bad points should be mentioned as well. I'm referring to the raw Jeter the op mentioned.

I can see how graded cards would be more of a challenge. I guess the best course of action would be to not offer their opinion at all since the card was already graded.

PaulMaul · June 15, 2019 10:13AM

I thought the card in question was graded.

If they are going to give an “auction house” like description talking up the card, then I can see how they should mention the defect once it has been pointed out to them. They would be better off simply stating the card’s grade and letting the scans speak for themselves.

msubearfan · June 15, 2019 10:36AM

If I feel a graded card I’m selling is over graded, I’ll mention that in the listing. I always try to reduce the possibility of a return or unsatisfactory buyer experience.

Not sure how this card received a 9 to begin with. I’ve received 5s and 6s on a few glossy cards where I’ve missed a very thin line across the card much less noticable than this.

lawnmowerman · June 15, 2019 10:52AM

@PaulMaul said:
I thought the card in question was graded.

If they are going to give an “auction house” like description talking up the card, then I can see how they should mention the defect once it has been pointed out to them. They would be better off simply stating the card’s grade and letting the scans speak for themselves.

My mistake. I didn't realize it was graded. Looking at the pics, it looked raw to me

mintonlypls · June 15, 2019 11:14AM

I bet Moser can fix it...

DotStore · June 15, 2019 1:40PM

@lawnmowerman said:

My mistake. I didn't realize it was graded. Looking at the pics, it looked raw to me

Here's the picture of the card that PWCC Provides in their auction listing.

lawnmowerman · June 15, 2019 1:57PM

@DotStore said:

@lawnmowerman said:

My mistake. I didn't realize it was graded. Looking at the pics, it looked raw to me

Here's the picture of the card that PWCC Provides in their auction listing.

>

Thanks....brain fart on my part. You even listed it as graded in the tittle and I breezed right by it.

GreenSneakers · June 15, 2019 2:00PM

@PaulMaul said:

I’m just not sure what PWCC’s role should be in determining whether a TPG’s grade is accurate.

Here's the thing. If they had just always stood by the caveat emptor policy of "We are not third party graders", then I really wouldn't have a problem with this card being relisted. I expect the card was like this when graded and not subsequently damaged or tampered with. You accept the return out of good business practices (or ebay rules if you want to go down that path), and relist as the 9 it got.

But PWCC started the whole hypocrisy of adding stickers and designating things high end, and in fact passing judgement on the TPGs. So if you are going to do it on the upside, you have to do it on the downside too. They dont get to have their cake and eat it too.

I felt that way two weeks ago, by the way. Now, if you are buying from PWCC, its CAVEAT EMPTOR in all caps, bold, underline. And threads like this are necessary and appreciated.

HighGradeLegends · June 15, 2019 4:39PM

@mintonlypls said:
I bet Moser can fix it...

Ha!

craig44 · June 15, 2019 5:45PM

PWCC is feeling more like a used car salesman by the day. Flowery, love story item descriptions but nary a word about obvious defects.

DBesse27 · June 15, 2019 6:29PM

I guess I’m the only one that thinks if PSA saw the defect and still thinks the card’s a PSA 9, then selling it as a PSA 9 is not wrong. And this is coming from somebody who hates PWCC and publicly pledged to never spend a penny with them. But that doesn’t mean I think they’re wrong in this case.

softparade · June 15, 2019 7:28PM

PWCC is no different than any other money grubbing misinformation laden profit or bust business. Doesn’t matter if it’s cards, gutters, or cars. The only items I’d entertain bidding on of theirs would be BBCE wrapped stuff. Nothing else.

dontippet · June 15, 2019 7:54PM

@DBesse27 said:
I guess I’m the only one that thinks if PSA saw the defect and still thinks the card’s a PSA 9, then selling it as a PSA 9 is not wrong. And this is coming from somebody who hates PWCC and publicly pledged to never spend a penny with them. But that doesn’t mean I think they’re wrong in this case.

I agree. I have no problem with them selling this as a 9 without bringing up the defect. But, I don't believe they should write a stunning review of the card. If they want to sell it as a 9 with no description, I am fine with that.

PADIdiver · June 15, 2019 8:36PM

Playing devils advocate here for those saying it's ok not to mention anything... if you buy an iPhone or some other electronic do you expect it to be brand new as described or if it had been returned do you expect that to be mentioned / sold differently (i.e. open box).

I expect a reputable company to do any of the following:
1. Mention it in the listing
2. Send it to SGC for re-evaluation
3. return it to the consignor as is with the note about the scratch

Any relevant information they are aware of and decide not to disclose as it will hurt their price isn't moral in my opinion.

doubledragon · June 16, 2019 12:56AM

If I was selling something to someone, I would certainly tell them everything about the item they were spending their hard earned money on. Every customer deserves to know every flaw from top to bottom. Anything else is unacceptable.

softparade · June 16, 2019 3:02AM

.

60sfan · June 16, 2019 5:38AM

@PADIdiver said:
Playing devils advocate here for those saying it's ok not to mention anything... if you buy an iPhone or some other electronic do you expect it to be brand new as described or if it had been returned do you expect that to be mentioned / sold differently (i.e. open box).

I expect a reputable company to do any of the following:
1. Mention it in the listing
2. Send it to SGC for re-evaluation
3. return it to the consignor as is with the note about the scratch

Any relevant information they are aware of and decide not to disclose as it will hurt their price isn't moral in my opinion.

Do TPG review cards they've graded and change a 9 to an 8.5?

if the owner paid for a 9 do they get compensated?

PaulMaul · June 16, 2019 6:09AM

@doubledragon said:
If I was selling something to someone, I would certainly tell them everything about the item they were spending their hard earned money on. Every customer deserves to know every flaw from top to bottom. Anything else is unacceptable.

So a seller who is offering a PSA 6 card should describe in detail every flaw that contributed to that grade?

secretstash · June 16, 2019 6:26AM

@doubledragon said:
If I was selling something to someone, I would certainly tell them everything about the item they were spending their hard earned money on. Every customer deserves to know every flaw from top to bottom. Anything else is unacceptable.

I disagree that it is up to the seller to disclose everything on a graded card. Even then, cards in the same identical numbered PSA grade are not always equal (buy the card not the holder). If the card is ungraded then it is much different, but still not completely up to the seller to be a card grading expert. High resolution pictures are a fairly normal expectation, but not the description.

Bottom line, if the card is graded, the seller is pretty protected that the grade is what it is, especially on ebay. Buyers can only stretch the truth and say "not as described" with a graded card with no write-up, but PWCC leaves his company somewhat vulnerable to this because the description is potentially inaccurate advertisement--i.e., not as described.

Additionally I was thinking...Does anyone know for a fact that PWCC did not send this card right to PSA for review before relisting? If PSA reviewed it and gave it the okay, I do not see this as big of a potential problem with the listing since PSA double confirmed it.

doubledragon · June 16, 2019 7:01AM

@PaulMaul said:

@doubledragon said:
If I was selling something to someone, I would certainly tell them everything about the item they were spending their hard earned money on. Every customer deserves to know every flaw from top to bottom. Anything else is unacceptable.

So a seller who is offering a PSA 6 card should describe in detail every flaw that contributed to that grade?

If he's honest. When someone spends their money on something, they deserve to know what they're buying. Besides, describing flaws on a card isn't hard to do. It's not like a customer is asking a seller to clean his toilet.

PaulMaul · June 16, 2019 7:04AM

@secretstash I think the card was actually graded by SGC.

MrHockey · June 16, 2019 7:11AM

I might be the only one here who isn't really seeing anything wrong with this card. That's not a crease or a scratch, it's a line - fairly common on modern foiled stuff.

softparade · June 16, 2019 8:07AM

@PaulMaul said:

@doubledragon said:
If I was selling something to someone, I would certainly tell them everything about the item they were spending their hard earned money on. Every customer deserves to know every flaw from top to bottom. Anything else is unacceptable.

So a seller who is offering a PSA 6 card should describe in detail every flaw that contributed to that grade?

I assumed the context here was HIGH END. Am I wrong?

sportscardtheory · June 16, 2019 8:47AM

LOL @ the guy saying 'If it's graded a 9 then it's a 9'.

demondeacs · June 16, 2019 1:57PM

@lawnmowerman said:

@PaulMaul said:

@lawnmowerman said:

@PaulMaul said:

@GoDodgersFan said:
This defect should be disclosed by the seller. Disappointing for sure.

Just to play devil’s advocate, what do you think PWCC’s responsibility is in this regard more generally? If they receive a card on consignment that just looks like a crappy example of the grade, should they disclose that?

Seeing how they talk up the good points of high grade examples and use their nifty little designations, if they choose to sell a card with a defect, then yes it should be mentioned. Unfortunately dollar signs cloud some seller's vision.

But every card has defects. That is the purpose of PSA grading it. I do think their stickers are stupid, but I’m not sure how it is their responsibility to second guess PSA’s grade.

True but imo, if they're going to talk up the good points, then in order of fairness, bad points should be mentioned as well. I'm referring to the raw Jeter the op mentioned.

I can see how graded cards would be more of a challenge. I guess the best course of action would be to not offer their opinion at all since the card was already graded.

Most sellers wouldn't talk it up, but I also can't remember the last time I saw a 9 or 10 from the big three where an ebay seller described the defects.

Heck, few even describe defects with their raw cards unless "see scan" counts as a description.

DBesse27 · June 16, 2019 1:58PM

@sportscardtheory said:
LOL @ the guy saying 'If it's graded a 9 then it's a 9'.

Then what is it? To me, the literal definition of a PSA 9 is a card that PSA looked at and holdered with a label with a 9 on it. If the case hasn’t been tampered with, then it remains a PSA 9. You might disagree and think it didn’t DESERVE the 9, but as long as it sits in that holder it is, by definition, a PSA 9 and always will be. And as such, I would sell it as a PSA 9, list that in the title of the listing, provide high res scans, and nothing more.

softparade · June 16, 2019 2:56PM

@DBesse27 said:

@sportscardtheory said:
LOL @ the guy saying 'If it's graded a 9 then it's a 9'.

Then what is it? To me, the literal definition of a PSA 9 is a card that PSA looked at and holdered with a label with a 9 on it. If the case hasn’t been tampered with, then it remains a PSA 9. You might disagree and think it didn’t DESERVE the 9, but as long as it sits in that holder it is, by definition, a PSA 9 and always will be. And as such, I would sell it as a PSA 9, list that in the title of the listing, provide high res scans, and nothing more.

Humans make mistakes. No matter the profession or the circumstance. To not bring mistakes to light for all is not behaving in good faith.

doubledragon · June 16, 2019 3:12PM

If the people saying they don't think the seller should list the flaws of this card had bought it and discovered it had a line, they wouldn't like it either. They can swear up and down that it wouldn't bother them, but it would, and they know it.

DBesse27 · June 16, 2019 4:26PM

@doubledragon said:
If the people saying they don't think the seller should list the flaws of this card had bought it and discovered it had a line, they wouldn't like it either. They can swear up and down that it wouldn't bother them, but it would, and they know it.

It would bother me. And the first thing I would do is go back to the scan (I just did) to see if the line is visible. It is and I’d kick myself for not zooming on the pic, or not sending the seller a question, or not passing altogether. I wouldn’t return it, and I sure as heck wouldn’t say the seller should have disclosed the flaw with anything other than the high res photo already provided. I have bought cards in the past that I was disappointed with when I received them, but in every case I eventually realized I didn’t pay close enough attention to the pics. And besides, why is it so incomprehensible that you can have a disappointed buyer/collector, but at the same time the seller still did nothing “wrong”?? The 2 ideas can coexist.

Now I know nobody will agree with me on this, because defending PWCC at this moment in the hobby is not a popular stance. Just know that I still think they’re reprehensible fraudsters. I just don’t think that this card and the related transactions are an example of said fraud.

PaulMaul · June 16, 2019 4:44PM

@DBesse27 Moving cards I purchased that I ended up being less than happy with has been my primary use of PWCC for years, precisely because I don’t feel right returning graded cards (which are as described) just because I’m unhappy with them. I always figured with their excellent scans, even if I don’t think a card is a great example, it will bring whatever the market bears. Five people could buy the same card, and three might be perfectly happy with it while the other two wouldn’t be. “Bad example of the grade” is in the eye of the beholder just like “high end.”

DotStore · June 16, 2019 4:47PM

@DBesse27
You actually see the line run top to bottom (if at all) in the picture that PWCC uses for the listing on eBay?

DBesse27 · June 16, 2019 5:31PM

@DotStore said:
@DBesse27
You actually see the line run top to bottom (if at all) in the picture that PWCC uses for the listing on eBay?

I don’t see the whole line, but I see a line, yes.

DBesse27 · June 16, 2019 5:31PM

@PaulMaul said:
@DBesse27 Moving cards I purchased that I ended up being less than happy with has been my primary use of PWCC for years, precisely because I don’t feel right returning graded cards (which are as described) just because I’m unhappy with them. I always figured with their excellent scans, even if I don’t think a card is a great example, it will bring whatever the market bears. Five people could buy the same card, and three might be perfectly happy with it while the other two wouldn’t be. “Bad example of the grade” is in the eye of the beholder just like “high end.”

Precisely!

DotStore · June 16, 2019 6:23PM

@DBesse27 said:

@DotStore said:
@DBesse27
You actually see the line run top to bottom (if at all) in the picture that PWCC uses for the listing on eBay?

I don’t see the whole line, but I see a line, yes.

Must be my monitor because I don’t see the line in their pictures. All I see in their picture is some pixelation / cloudiness about where the line is, and a strange white crescent-moon shaped object under Jeter’s throwing hand.

Anyway, current high bid is $2,600 on this SGC 9. I sure hope the winning bidder sees the line on the PWCC pics of this SGC 9 like you see it...

Unknown · July 23, 2019 1:05PM

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DBesse27 · July 23, 2019 1:17PM

@rachelstone said:
Seems to me that the pic/scan used is less-than-impressive. That to me is telling. It's almost as if pwcc, by using unclear pics and imagery of the item for sale is not only saying "trust me", but also saying trust the TPG.

I'm not in the business of buying things I can't see at that kind of price point. Whenever anyone says "trust me, it's cool...you don't need a clear pic", I'm skeptical and moving on. Add to that who it is that wants the trust and...well....

Disclosing every flaw on a TPG holstered card seems a bit much, but at least put a pic up that accurately shows the card. Jeez.

Welcome to the forum.

LarkinCollector · July 23, 2019 1:35PM

@DBesse27 said:
Welcome to the forum.

You trying to put HGL out of business?

ahopkins · July 23, 2019 1:39PM

@LarkinCollector said:

@DBesse27 said:
Welcome to the forum.

You trying to put HGL out of business?

Unknown · July 23, 2019 1:43PM

This content has been removed.

HighGradeLegends · July 23, 2019 1:49PM

@DBesse27 said:

@rachelstone said:
Seems to me that the pic/scan used is less-than-impressive. That to me is telling. It's almost as if pwcc, by using unclear pics and imagery of the item for sale is not only saying "trust me", but also saying trust the TPG.

I'm not in the business of buying things I can't see at that kind of price point. Whenever anyone says "trust me, it's cool...you don't need a clear pic", I'm skeptical and moving on. Add to that who it is that wants the trust and...well....

Disclosing every flaw on a TPG holstered card seems a bit much, but at least put a pic up that accurately shows the card. Jeez.

Welcome to the forum.

@LarkinCollector said:

@DBesse27 said:
Welcome to the forum.

You trying to put HGL out of business?

This

Heads Up on PWCC Auction for a 1993 SP Jeter Graded 9 MT

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