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Thoughts on an 1803 Bust Dollar?

HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum

Apologies for the low resolution image, but do you see signs of an old cleaning here, e.g., in the hair behind Miss Liberty's eyes? When held at an angle, this area has an almost milky appearance. I'm fairly certain there is no foreign substance on the coin.

Thanks for any thoughts or observations.

Higashiyama

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    ashelandasheland Posts: 22,695 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Something looks off about it...

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    ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .....as if there is some etching done on the groves :s

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    roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019 2:01PM

    Is that even genuine?

    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
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    rawmorganrawmorgan Posts: 618 ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019 3:03PM

    The fonts look way off.

    Here is an image from coin facts. Look at the font for "L"in Liberty between the two coins.

    BTW this is way out of my comfort zone

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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IDK... I'll defer to the experts on this board but the spacing between LIBERTY and the stars looks off too. The surfaces look dead. Is this coin raw or holdered?

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,564 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Post a picture of the reverse.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
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    Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019 4:01PM

    @rawmorgan said:
    The fonts look way off.

    Here is an image from coin facts. Look at the font for "L"in Liberty between the two coins.

    BTW this is way out of my comfort zone

    I'm not commenting on the OP's coin yet except to say that what you point out (the bifurcation at the base of the "L") seems to occur as the dies start to wear.

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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019 7:16PM

    Thanks for the various thoughts, especially @cardinal for the photos and comments on strike.

    Although I am not qualified to detect a well made counterfeit, probably this coin is real. I acquired it from Stacks about 20 years ago. It is among a selection of raw coins I’m thinking of submitting-though when I looked back at this one, I had some serious doubts! It is in fact a somewhat lifeless coin, though not as dreary as the photo looks. I was a bit confused by the slightly milky appearance in places, which does not seem to be due to any residue, but may be due to a cleaning that didn’t tone over naturally.

    Higashiyama
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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PS-@roadrunner: it’s great to see you posting again!

    Among the raw coins I may submit is the 1839 half that you reviewed for me years ago. It’s still one of my favorite coins.

    Higashiyama
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    lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,887 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like a genuine BB-254 to me.
    Lance.

    Coin Photography Services / Everyman Registry set / BHNC #213
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    jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 32,008 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it's genuine, small 3. Probably an old cleaning, mmost of these were. I think it will grade

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    rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A nice coin @Higashiyama ...also good to see you posting again....Looks authentic and worth submitting... Let us know what it grades... Cheers, RickO

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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I think it's worth it to submit. Even if it comes back in a "details' slab, it's still worth it for the authentication.

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't have a problem with it. The picture looks like a flatbed scan, as it's kind of dead, but this is the kind of coin I would take a closer look at to add to my collection. Most bust dollars have been cleaned at one time or another, even those in straight-graded holders. I would send it in.

    John
    Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
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    ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2019 10:48AM

    It's polished to shit oblivion and retoned. Likely called "altered surfaces". "AT" would be a grading score. Based on pessimistic valuation (is a holed one still worth $350?) it still insists of a fee for the basal value and authenticity.

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ColonelJessup

    I know you really want the coin, but it's not for sale! :D

    Higashiyama
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    ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Still worth the fee :o

    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
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    SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,024 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the coin is genuine, it's cleaned, buffed, smoothed.

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    lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 7,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looking at the pic from the OP, there's a raised spot to the left of the 5th star just off the dentils that doesn't seem to be on the BB-254, Bolender-4 die variety.... just a raised chunk of metal from the minting process?? again... very interesting piece!

    Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;

    Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
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    toyonakatarotoyonakataro Posts: 407 ✭✭✭

    Please let us know once you got grade from PCGS/NGC

    Are you also going to send in the eagle you told me the other day?

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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Toyonakatoro -- thanks, if I ever get around to submitting this historical, charming, but unloved coin, I will definitely post an update!

    With regard to the eagle -- maybe at the September show. If so, it should definitely deserve its own thread.

    Higashiyama
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    BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The jawline looks a bit off, but it could just be the lighting. In any case the fields and devices look unnaturally smoothed to me, as others have said.

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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    BryceM,

    Thanks, yes, I would be (a) very surprised is it graded, but also (b) very surprised if it were deemed counterfeit,

    The actual surfaces are not quite as "pasty" as they appear in my image, but they are devoid of any trace of luster. Rather than artificial smoothing, I guess the look of this coin goes back to the days of baking soda type cleaning.

    If I do submit this thing, I will also try to come up with a somewhat better photo!

    (does pcgs true view no grades? :) )

    Higashiyama
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    HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Please recall the saga of my poor much-maligned bust dollar. :'(

    Based on my original iphone photo, opinions on the coin ranged from:

    1) Obviously cleaned, but could straight-grade, to
    2) A bit too harsh a cleaning for a straight grade, but no other severe issues
    3) This things has been really worked over, harshly cleaned, possibly smoothed, then recolored
    4) A very odd looking coin ... I suspect a counterfeit.

    Here a some better obverse and reverse photos:

    Based on these photos, before I reveal the view of our host, let me know if you have additional or revised thoughts on the coin.

    Thanks for humoring me!

    Higashiyama
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    TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,743 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 29, 2019 4:45PM

    This is not my series, but I could see it grading Vf30. These pics are much better and I think it definitely real.

    Trade $'s
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    toyonakatarotoyonakataro Posts: 407 ✭✭✭

    My guess is VF25

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    jdillanejdillane Posts: 2,364 ✭✭✭

    She’s got 25 meat but surface quality might net her @20.

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