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Do you think this 1861-O half is actually a proof?
dalladalla69
Posts: 61 ✭
Came across this coin on the bay and was curious what are the member's opinions here as to if this is actually a proof? I have heard of branch mint proofs before but am dubious to the origin of this coin. What do the members here think, is this legitimate?
For a million bucks I would want this in our hosts holder with the same designation. I feel like it;s in its current holder for a reason.
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@Insider2
I'll look at the #Tuesday. I think (I know, I know, how could you not remember this coin!) I remember the coin and it was crossed from another TPGS slab. We would not take a coin as this lightly. I don't see how it could be a label error either! LOL.
@Insider2 @KollectorKing @Bigbuck1975 @dalladalla69
For your reference and for discussion purposes, I found this👇 James Stack Collection Pedigreed 1861-O NGC SP-64 Seated Liberty Half Dollar in Heritage’s Auction Archives, which sold for $97,750 in April 2008.
Web Link: 👉 https://coins.ha.com/itm/seated-half-dollars/half-dollars/1861-o-50c-sp64-ngc/a/1104-2313.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I hate to be a plastic snob, but there is a reason a coin like that isn't in a NGC or PCGS holder even though the services apparently recognize the pieces.
Nope. Further, without documentary justification, there is no support for calling a PL coin "Specimen" or any other imaginary critter. (Notice the missing details in feathers, etc. from excess polishing....)
Branch mint proofs seem to be controversial. I think that is why they use "SP" instead of "PR". I think SP coins may be examples at the really high end of the distribution of normal business strikes or maybe they had some special treatment during production for whatever reason. I'll go out on a limb and guess it would cross as an SP, given that term seems to mean "really proof-like".
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
One thing for sure(?) That $mil asking price seems a bit....optimistic.
Every TPGS has "pulled" the term "Specimen" out of the hat for coins w/o documentation. That does not make it right and I don't like it either but...this service was not the first ever to do it.
It is certainly a beautiful coin and would be a prized possession... not at that price though....@Insider2..any further information forthcoming? Cheers, RickO
I was going to bid, but the .03 at the end of the price deterred me. I mean, really?
Nice...but wrong holder.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
Wrong holder for what?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I assume he means not PCGS or NGC.
I'm not sure why PL isn't sufficient for a coin that was not known to be specially struck.
I do, as well. While I have seen that comment on numerous other occasions, I don’t understand the point of repeating it. Why not comment on the coin, apart from what holder it’s in?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If the coin was in a problem free (non details) PCGS holder, then I would take it seriously. I am not sure of ICG holders.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
It's a religion. Don't question anyone's deity.
The saying I wish they'd retire is: "if it were any good it would already be in a holder" There are still a lot of raw collections out there.
The "true bargain" from the same seller is the 1891-O 10C Branch Mint Proof NGC PF66 for $10,000,000.00
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ANA LM, LSCC, EAC, FUN
It's all about $$$$$$$. A 62 PL/DPL might be worth $2k-$3k at most (based on the low premium that other PL seated coins have brought in lower grades), and that might be a stretch. As a specimen, if it is a specimen or branch mint proof, is worth many multiples of that.
The word "specimen" as used in this thread and on the pictured coin is just as meaningful as "New Improved" "We Pay Highest Prices" and "Brightens Teeth Better."
For this mutilation of meaning, the TPGs - all of them - are directly responsible.
In fairness, the photos aren't the greatest so there isn't much to go on. Moreover, as much as I advocate buying the coin and evaluating it on its own merits, there is a reason that a coin like this is not in a specimen designated holder at the top two. Even a details/genuine SP/Branch Mint proof PCGS holder might fetch more than the ICG holder.
Yes there are raw scores. The fact that this coin is in an ICG holder shows that someone knew enough to send it off to be certified, which would suggest (but not guarantee) the person knew enough to find PCGS or NGC. To be fair, I'm not saying to not buy the coin or that it is less deserving than similar designated pieces in PCGS and NGC plastic, but there are red flags. This isn't a show where you can evaluate the coin in hand; it's an eBay sale and an eBay sale with mediocre images no less. Can you imagine the return shipping and insurance on a six figure coin?
Why would someone use such Low👇Quality (hard to discern) out of focus Images to market a coin that they’re hoping to sell for $1 Million ?
At least they’re offering Free Shipping!! 😂🤣 LOL
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
It's like a six or seven figure version of a Centsles listing.
I was speaking more generally. I'm not advocating for this particular coin.
I can’t disagree with any of that. Still, the poster to whom I first replied sounded as if he was automatically dismissing the coin, due solely to its holder. I didn’t get the impression that a better image or the merits of the coin, itself, would have mattered. Certainly, many others dismiss (non-esoteric) coins, just because of their holders.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
**Edit for spelling
* Thanks @jmlanzaf Spectacular looking coin. I know nothing of ICG and have not taken the time to read up on there services or history. So for that reason I have passed on all plastic with the IGC brand. (Not talking about the price or coin in OP) I may be wrong in doing so. Does anyone own a few from ICG
It's ICG and they are roughly equivalent to ANACS in the current environment: second tier to NGC/PCGS.
Thanks for the info!> @jmlanzaf said:
Holder reputation shouldn't matter here, the facts should. Buy the coin not the holder. First, it does appear to be a sharp strike, as far as I can tell. However, it's impossible to get a clear enough picture to get the real details. Sharp rims and mirrored surfaces can occur on business strikes. Note also the weakness in liberty's hair. Compare this to any genuine 1861 proof (yes I know a branch mint specimen would have differences to a Philly proof).
Second point is obvious . Who the hell sells any valuable coin with this photography quality?
Note the die pair is different than the other example posted. The other example is a W-1, the first die pair used in 1861, according to Wiley. Why a separate striking? That's assuming the Stack example is even a valid specimen.
Most worryingly, no historical documentation is offered. Besides the 4 csa special strikes (w-12), are any other special strikes for this date known through historical record? There is a tendency in the coin world to "let the coin do the talking" and focus on what could be. Special strikes should really require at least some sort of documentation, if not provenance. There were plenty of historical events in 1861 to merit special strikes at the New Orleans facility, but we need evidence.
TLDR: coin may be special but no objective proof to justify the price tag.
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That's not my point. The TPGS have latched on to SP for coins that are simply proof-like (in some cases) because they look different. Unless the dies were specially prepared for presentation pieces, SP is a misnomer.
I have looked up the coin as promised. We (including me- sorry I forgot) graded the coin in 2017 as a SP-62. It was a crossover but the original service is not in the records. In our opinion, this coin was specially struck at the New Orleans Mint for some reason. That is why it received the "Specimen" designation. The Ebay images do not do the coin justice.