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Libertas Americana 3 cent pattern

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited May 25, 2019 8:42PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

Comments

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

    Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

    I would hope no one would slab a counterfeit mule electrotype. If someone did, let's see if we can talk them into slabbing Chinese counterfeits also.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2019 4:18PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Zoins said:
    I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

    Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

    I would hope no one would slab a counterfeit mule electrotype. If someone did, let's see if we can talk them into slabbing Chinese counterfeits also.

    Well, PCGS slabs both Machin's Mills half pennies and New Haven Fugios. I think this would be more along the lines of those than others.

  • JustacommemanJustacommeman Posts: 22,847 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @zoins that is off the hook! Thanks for posting

    m

    Walker Proof Digital Album
    Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Fascinating!

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Zoins said:
    I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

    Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

    I would hope no one would slab a counterfeit mule electrotype. If someone did, let's see if we can talk them into slabbing Chinese counterfeits also.

    Well, PCGS slabs both Machin's Mills half pennies and New Haven Fugios. I think this would be more along the lines of those than others.

    Those coins may be considered "counterfeit", but they aren't utter fantasies.

  • KudbegudKudbegud Posts: 4,735 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great Libertas fantasy I'd love to have.


  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I will be in Massachusetts this summer. I would like to take a look at the one there.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2019 8:47PM

    @cardinal said:
    This is not the Musante specimen:

    Is this the Cardinal specimen? ;)

    Is it still 2 known or are there others now?

    Here’s the cert link:

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:
    I will be in Massachusetts this summer. I would like to take a look at the one there.

    If anyone is interested, we can meet up and make it a group visit :D

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have some electric box punch out patterns - that are just as valid as this phony item.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 25, 2019 7:33PM

    @jmlanzaf don’t feel too bad about PCGS slabbing these. I was pretty confident that they would given its origins.

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is not the Musante specimen:

    Is this the Cardinal specimen? ;)

    Is it still 2 known or are there others now?

    Here’s the cert link:

    Yes, that is the Cardinal specimen. As far as I know, there are only 3 of these known:

    MHS specimen
    Musante specimen
    Cardinal specimen.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2019 12:59AM

    @cardinal said:

    @Zoins said:

    @cardinal said:
    This is not the Musante specimen:

    Is this the Cardinal specimen? ;)

    Is it still 2 known or are there others now?

    Here’s the cert link:

    Yes, that is the Cardinal specimen. As far as I know, there are only 3 of these known:

    MHS specimen
    Musante specimen
    Cardinal specimen.

    I'm glad you have one :)

    Given the denomination, it would make sense for there to be 3 of these.

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,664 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was bidding on that one but it went over my comfort level. I can’t remember who one this but it was
    someone from here and/or dealer. They might be been a post about it.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinsarefun said:
    I was bidding on that one but it went over my comfort level. I can’t remember who one this but it was
    someone from here and/or dealer. They might be been a post about it.

    Good to know. Sorry you didn't win it. Hopefully the winner / owner will post.

  • cardinalcardinal Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭

    These are the auction photos of the Musante specimen, sold by StacksBowers in February 2014, where it was sold for $3,290:

    The Cardinal specimen (Ex: Ted L. Craige Collection) was purchased in June 2013.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm with Roger B. That is a numismatic travesty.

    I'll be gluing some Franklin obverse to some Walker reverses later and sending them to PCGS for authentication.

    Seriously, it's two different electrotypes joined. It's a fake made of two fakes.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What is the earliest record of one of these existing?

    How long has the MHS had theirs?

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2019 6:50AM

    Makes one wonder why PCGS won't slab the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

    That has not been established.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

    That has not been established.

    True. It could be real.

    Honestly, I don't expect them to slab a coin of unknown authenticity. But I also wouldn't expect them to slab a KNOWN counterfeit fantasy

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And it is especially disappointing because I called them and ATS about certifying WELL KNOWN platinum counterfeits of Spanish gold 8 escudos and they were both adamant that "we don't slab counterfeits"

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2019 7:10AM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

    That has not been established.

    True. It could be real.

    Honestly, I don't expect them to slab a coin of unknown authenticity. But I also wouldn't expect them to slab a KNOWN counterfeit fantasy

    But you’re okay with known counterfeits as you posted above? Do you also think the Machin’s Mills pieces aren’t counterfeit as you used quotes?

    It would seem that a fantasy would be more slabbable then an out right counterfeit.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,618 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @CaptHenway said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

    That has not been established.

    True. It could be real.

    Honestly, I don't expect them to slab a coin of unknown authenticity. But I also wouldn't expect them to slab a KNOWN counterfeit fantasy

    But you’re okay with known counterfeits as you posted above? Do you also think the Machin’s Mills pieces aren’t counterfeit as you used quotes?

    It would seem that a fantasy would be more slabbable then an out right counterfeit.

    Honestly, I wish they'd just be consistent. Slab everything or nothing. Why is one fantasy better than another? Why is one counterfeit better than another?

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 8,588 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Simply Marvelous piece! I knew if anybody at all ....... @cardinal would have one of them :)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2019 11:34PM

    @cardinal said:
    PCGS encapsulates quite a number of creations of the Gallery Mint Museum and Daniel Carr, which would never be mistaken for U.S. Mint products.

    I know PCGS encapsulates a few GMM pieces but wasn't aware of Daniel Carr's pieces. Are there any examples of Dan's pieces that have been encapsulated by PCGS?

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A rare and interesting token.... I agree with @cardinal ... They are not counterfeit since they are not coins and do not represent another creation. They are an independent design, or even 'fantasy' piece, if that is more colloquially palatable...A unique piece indeed. Cheers, RickO

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