Libertas Americana 3 cent pattern

Zoins · May 25, 2019 2:58PM

I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

jmlanzaf · May 25, 2019 3:15PM

@Zoins said:
I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

I would hope no one would slab a counterfeit mule electrotype. If someone did, let's see if we can talk them into slabbing Chinese counterfeits also.

Zoins · May 25, 2019 3:18PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:
I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

I would hope no one would slab a counterfeit mule electrotype. If someone did, let's see if we can talk them into slabbing Chinese counterfeits also.

Well, PCGS slabs both Machin's Mills half pennies and New Haven Fugios. I think this would be more along the lines of those than others.

Justacommeman · May 25, 2019 3:25PM

@zoins that is off the hook! Thanks for posting

m

CaptHenway · May 25, 2019 3:30PM

Fascinating!

Unknown · May 25, 2019 3:43PM

This content has been removed.

jmlanzaf · May 25, 2019 4:05PM

@Zoins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Zoins said:
I'm currently reading up on Neil Musante's collection and ran across this interesting fantasy piece.

Anyone know where this 3 cent Libertas Americana pattern is today? Is it slabbed?

I would hope no one would slab a counterfeit mule electrotype. If someone did, let's see if we can talk them into slabbing Chinese counterfeits also.

Well, PCGS slabs both Machin's Mills half pennies and New Haven Fugios. I think this would be more along the lines of those than others.

Those coins may be considered "counterfeit", but they aren't utter fantasies.

Kudbegud · May 25, 2019 4:24PM

Great Libertas fantasy I'd love to have.

cardinal · May 25, 2019 5:27PM

This is not the Musante specimen:

thisistheshow · May 25, 2019 5:28PM

I will be in Massachusetts this summer. I would like to take a look at the one there.

Zoins · May 25, 2019 5:28PM

@cardinal said:
This is not the Musante specimen:

Is this the Cardinal specimen?

Is it still 2 known or are there others now?

Here’s the cert link:

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/29303445

thisistheshow · May 25, 2019 5:31PM

@thisistheshow said:
I will be in Massachusetts this summer. I would like to take a look at the one there.

If anyone is interested, we can meet up and make it a group visit

RogerB · May 25, 2019 5:31PM

I have some electric box punch out patterns - that are just as valid as this phony item.

Zoins · May 25, 2019 5:34PM

@jmlanzaf don’t feel too bad about PCGS slabbing these. I was pretty confident that they would given its origins.

cardinal · May 25, 2019 7:28PM

@Zoins said:

@cardinal said:
This is not the Musante specimen:

Is this the Cardinal specimen?

Is it still 2 known or are there others now?

Here’s the cert link:

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/29303445

Yes, that is the Cardinal specimen. As far as I know, there are only 3 of these known:

MHS specimen
Musante specimen
Cardinal specimen.

Zoins · May 25, 2019 7:41PM

@cardinal said:

@Zoins said:

@cardinal said:
This is not the Musante specimen:

Is this the Cardinal specimen?

Is it still 2 known or are there others now?

Here’s the cert link:

https://www.pcgs.com/cert/29303445

Yes, that is the Cardinal specimen. As far as I know, there are only 3 of these known:

MHS specimen
Musante specimen
Cardinal specimen.

I'm glad you have one

Given the denomination, it would make sense for there to be 3 of these.

coinsarefun · May 25, 2019 11:51PM

I was bidding on that one but it went over my comfort level. I can’t remember who one this but it was
someone from here and/or dealer. They might be been a post about it.

Zoins · May 26, 2019 12:04AM

@coinsarefun said:
I was bidding on that one but it went over my comfort level. I can’t remember who one this but it was
someone from here and/or dealer. They might be been a post about it.

Good to know. Sorry you didn't win it. Hopefully the winner / owner will post.

cardinal · May 26, 2019 4:11AM

These are the auction photos of the Musante specimen, sold by StacksBowers in February 2014, where it was sold for $3,290:

The Cardinal specimen (Ex: Ted L. Craige Collection) was purchased in June 2013.

jmlanzaf · May 26, 2019 5:29AM

I'm with Roger B. That is a numismatic travesty.

I'll be gluing some Franklin obverse to some Walker reverses later and sending them to PCGS for authentication.

Seriously, it's two different electrotypes joined. It's a fake made of two fakes.

CaptHenway · May 26, 2019 5:30AM

What is the earliest record of one of these existing?

How long has the MHS had theirs?

jmlanzaf · May 26, 2019 5:30AM

Makes one wonder why PCGS won't slab the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

CaptHenway · May 26, 2019 5:42AM

@jmlanzaf said:
Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

That has not been established.

jmlanzaf · May 26, 2019 5:52AM

@CaptHenway said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

That has not been established.

True. It could be real.

Honestly, I don't expect them to slab a coin of unknown authenticity. But I also wouldn't expect them to slab a KNOWN counterfeit fantasy

jmlanzaf · May 26, 2019 5:55AM

And it is especially disappointing because I called them and ATS about certifying WELL KNOWN platinum counterfeits of Spanish gold 8 escudos and they were both adamant that "we don't slab counterfeits"

cardinal · May 26, 2019 6:08AM

@jmlanzaf said:
I'm with Roger B. That is a numismatic travesty.

I'll be gluing some Franklin obverse to some Walker reverses later and sending them to PCGS for authentication.

Seriously, it's two different electrotypes joined. It's a fake made of two fakes.

I have to weigh in here. The TOKENS shown in the pictures are just that...TOKENS! There is no confusion that they were created by the United States Mints. It is obvious that they were created outside of the Mint by a private party, by muling two different designs. Neither the Libertas obverse or the 3-cent pattern reverse were ever monetized as legal tender; whereas, muling a Franklin half dollar obverse with a Walking Liberty reverse would create an object that might be misconstrued as being an actual U.S. Mint product.

As such, the TOKENS above are simply objects of exonumia! Clearly, PCGS deemed that encapsulating such exonumia would not mislead their origin. Remember, PCGS encapsulates the 1796 "Edwards Copy" half cent and the so-called restrikes of of 1804 and 1823 Large cents, even though they were are CLEARLY known to have been created outside of the Mint. Furtheremore, PCGS encapsulates quite a number of creations of the Gallery Mint Museum and Daniel Carr, which would never be mistaken for U.S. Mint products. Should the above TOKENS be denied encapsulation just because someone thinks they are a "travesty"????

Zoins · May 26, 2019 6:09AM

@jmlanzaf said:

@CaptHenway said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

That has not been established.

True. It could be real.

Honestly, I don't expect them to slab a coin of unknown authenticity. But I also wouldn't expect them to slab a KNOWN counterfeit fantasy

But you’re okay with known counterfeits as you posted above? Do you also think the Machin’s Mills pieces aren’t counterfeit as you used quotes?

It would seem that a fantasy would be more slabbable then an out right counterfeit.

jmlanzaf · May 26, 2019 7:14AM

@Zoins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@CaptHenway said:

@jmlanzaf said:
Makes one wonder why PCGS won't clean the 1959-D wheat cent. If it's a struck counterfeit from two transfer dies, it's basically the same thing

That has not been established.

True. It could be real.

Honestly, I don't expect them to slab a coin of unknown authenticity. But I also wouldn't expect them to slab a KNOWN counterfeit fantasy

But you’re okay with known counterfeits as you posted above? Do you also think the Machin’s Mills pieces aren’t counterfeit as you used quotes?

It would seem that a fantasy would be more slabbable then an out right counterfeit.

Honestly, I wish they'd just be consistent. Slab everything or nothing. Why is one fantasy better than another? Why is one counterfeit better than another?

Paradisefound · May 26, 2019 10:25PM

Simply Marvelous piece! I knew if anybody at all ....... @cardinal would have one of them

Zoins · May 26, 2019 10:34PM

@cardinal said:
PCGS encapsulates quite a number of creations of the Gallery Mint Museum and Daniel Carr, which would never be mistaken for U.S. Mint products.

I know PCGS encapsulates a few GMM pieces but wasn't aware of Daniel Carr's pieces. Are there any examples of Dan's pieces that have been encapsulated by PCGS?

ricko · May 27, 2019 5:01AM

A rare and interesting token.... I agree with @cardinal ... They are not counterfeit since they are not coins and do not represent another creation. They are an independent design, or even 'fantasy' piece, if that is more colloquially palatable...A unique piece indeed. Cheers, RickO

Libertas Americana 3 cent pattern

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