@DIMEMAN said:
Don't get me started on the 1964 SMS coins! The fact that they are required in the MS sets is totally outrageous! They should be in the Proof sets like the 65-67 SMS coins!
I suppose that registry demand accounts for the high prices?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
To each his own, people. Absent documentation from the US Mint, the controversy will always surround these "special" coins. I'm OK with that. As a Civil War token collector, sometimes a good story passed down over the years is all you have to go on. Records were not kept for private diesinkers and medalists like we have for the Mint.
Of course, that is what begs the question: if these are indeed experimental strikes or "SMS" coins, didnt anyone keep a record of them at the Mint?
For what it is worth, I have owned one example. The 1964 SMS dime. Wholly unimpressive to these eyes. And I tried to love it. Just kept thinking if it was cracked out of the slab, could I ever tell the difference between a "business strike" '64 if the two were side by side?
"Oh, the SMS has heavy die scratches..."
Not enough to get me going or keep me interested
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
@Walkerfan said:
So much for the hobby being dead............
I almost swallowed my gum, when I first saw this, but the more I think of it....let people collect what they like....It's good for the hobby.
Who am I to judge??
the health of the hobby cannot be judged by the high end coins. Attend a major stamp auction and you'll see records set for 6 or 7 figure stamps. But most stamps sell at 10% of catalogue and that's AFTER they dropped the catalogue value. Mid range natural like Columbians are off 80% fron 25 years ago.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
a quick reference at CoinFacts reveals the following individual sales, though not of the same(or this) coin:
November 2006 --- $4,715.
July 2008 --- $6,038.
January 2010 --- $16,100.
September 2016 --- $47,000.
April 2019 --- $108,000.
certainly there are most likely differences in appearance and the coin IS important, but these prices are for PCGS encapsulated 1964 SMS SP67 Kennedy half-Dollars. it shows a clear interest and price escalation over the past 12+ years.
Satin Proofs are proof Peace $1.
You've got me wrong @cameonut, ironically, has no proofs, and you quoted irrefutable evidence (as yet uncontradicted by the @togglepress crowd, which is an issue for your numismatic, not sexual, ambiguity.
All snorts are snarts? Whooooa Aristotlean or Boolean, this proposition is absurd
All snirts are snarts. Sure !
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
Satin Proofs are proof Peace $1.
You've got me wrong @cameonut, ironically, has no proofs, and you quoted irrefutable evidence (as yet uncontradicted by the @togglepress crowd, which is an issue for your numismatic, not sexual, ambiguity.
All snorts are snarts? Whooooa Aristotlean or Boolean, this proposition is absurd
All snirts are snarts. Sure !
Ahh was thrown off by the silly alert telling me you had responded to my post. I didnt read the quoted text. I just quickly reacted in defense like a true warrior often does.
So.....bringing this thread back in track, just a little...
This coin is obviously not a "condition rarity." That is to say, no one purchased it because it is a top pop kind of coin. Rather, bidders are banking on its "absolute rarity." The story that these are experimental strikes. "Specimens."
That is highly controversial, as no records seem to exist.
Would the experts care to weigh in on their own reasons for believing or disbelieving the existence of 1964 SMS coins?
And be civil about it, please!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I'd much rather have a 40% silver 77-D. They probably had just as much help being made as the subject coin had finding its way to Merkin. They are rarer, with 12 silver planchets ending up in Denver being struck (along with 6 40% Ike planchets). The only thing it has going against it is that it's considered an error and not something to include in a registry set.
Another thing to consider is how SMS coins are graded when compared with normal business strikes. Would the subject coin grade 68 or higher (even with the spot) if treated strictly as a normal business strike, making it a pop 1/0 coin? If so, would it bring that kind of scratch as a condition rarity?
@DCW said:
So.....bringing this thread back in track, just a little...
This coin is obviously not a "condition rarity." That is to say, no one purchased it because it is a top pop kind of coin. Rather, bidders are banking on its "absolute rarity." The story that these are experimental strikes. "Specimens."
That is highly controversial, as no records seem to exist.
Would the experts care to weigh in on their own reasons for believing or disbelieving the existence of 1964 SMS coins?
And be civil about it, please!
There already is a thread discussing this if you search.
The believers say they may have been presentation pieces or trial strikes. [Usual back door to the Mint.] The Kennedy halves 1st appeared in 1993 from a coin dealer (Lester Merkin) who supposedly got them from a Mint employee. Merkin supposedly bought the estate of former Mint Director Eva Adams and these coins may have come from there. Per PCGS (Jaime Hernandez), "some if not all" of the SMS coins source from Merkin. This makes them suspiciously similar to the 1913 Liberty nickel fantasy coins.
The disbelievers point to the lack of records and the die polish/prep issues explain the finish, as already discussed in this thread.
Personally, the evidence is not very compelling. Why did it take 30 years for them to appear? Wouldn't a coin dealer (Merkin) have hyped them while alive? Why is there no record of striking? Either trial strikes or presentation pieces should have some record.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@RogerB said:
Previous discussions have stated - very clearly - the nature of so-called "1964 SMS" coins. No need to repeat it.
The Kennedy half in the OP is a nice $8.00 coin. Imagine what could be learned if the premium paid, $87,179.50 [$87,187.50 minus $8], were applied to meaningful research, or simple digitization of manuscript documents.
I favor the Garrett '95 $10 MS66+ CAC at $2.5M over the Eliasberg '13 5c PR66 CAC at $4.5M because the former melts for more, not because it's a bigger shinier bauble. Not because it oozes historicity rather than notoriety. Not because it is esthetically superior. I just like to say it because it makes me feel smarter
Specie is Specie. The rest is narcissistic self-aggrandizement. Why should specie, unless it's a 1933 $20, need paperwork?
BTW, I consider both over-graded. 1) 65+, scratch in front of the face. 2) Dull striated "mirrors" with eye appeal of a 64.
It's a matter of taste. not bibliographic cross-referencing.
Now ask me if I think this (only some think it's special) intrinsically valued eight buck coin will perform better over the next 5 years than a 1907 HR $20 66 CAC?
I consider both over-rated.
1984 - the first 30 seconds I saw the (raw) KOS 1804 $1 (now 67 no CAC) I graded it 65-
2000 -The first 0.3 seconds I saw the (holdered) Childs' 1804 $1 PR68 (no CAC) I graded it 66-
I hope my snobbery is clearly manifest.
I have the biases of a dinosaur.
Notwithstanding that, I am sufficiently curious about coins and the coin market to now, caring not the least about its technical characteristics nor bona fides, to study the price structure of these SMS pieces. In addition to being a coin geek, I'm a math geek. I want to see what Fibonacci has to say about the series. He can't grade them either.
To (sort of?) paraphrase @keets, I get off on seeing what floats other peoples' boats, sometimes in ways they themselves might not appreciate.
However, modern deconstructionist theory simply classifies you and I as geeks
As @homerunhall used to say "Have fun with your nuancesbooks coins"
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
@DCW said:
So.....bringing this thread back in track, just a little...
This coin is obviously not a "condition rarity." That is to say, no one purchased it because it is a top pop kind of coin. Rather, bidders are banking on its "absolute rarity." The story that these are experimental strikes. "Specimens."
That is highly controversial, as no records seem to exist.
Would the experts care to weigh in on their own reasons for believing or disbelieving the existence of 1964 SMS coins?
And be civil about it, please!
There already is a thread discussing this if you search.
The believers say they may have been presentation pieces or trial strikes. [Usual back door to the Mint.] The Kennedy halves 1st appeared in 1993 from a coin dealer (Lester Merkin) who supposedly got them from a Mint employee. Merkin supposedly bought the estate of former Mint Director Eva Adams and these coins may have come from there. Per PCGS (Jaime Hernandez), "some if not all" of the SMS coins source from Merkin. This makes them suspiciously similar to the 1913 Liberty nickel fantasy coins.
The disbelievers point to the lack of records and the die polish/prep issues explain the finish, as already discussed in this thread.
Personally, the evidence is not very compelling. Why did it take 30 years for them to appear? Wouldn't a coin dealer (Merkin) have hyped them while alive? Why is there no record of striking? Either trial strikes or presentation pieces should have some record.
I believe Eva Adams passed away in 1991, so if Lester Merkin obtained the coins from her estate, he couldn't have had them very long before he passed away in 1992.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@DCW said:
So.....bringing this thread back in track, just a little...
I believe Eva Adams passed away in 1991, so if Lester Merkin obtained the coins from her estate, he couldn't have had them very long before he passed away in 1992.
I didn't care to do any more research. LOL. It's one of those "cinderella" coins in the hobby that there is no point in trying to sort out. You either believe or you don't.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
at the time these were struck the Mint was sort of cloaked in secrecy due to the perceived hoarding of coins by collectors and the Mint's attempt to thwart more hoarding. that is the reasoning for the three SMS years, coins struck at all Mints with no MM. I have never seen anything published which states at what time of year in 1964 that the coins in question were struck or even if they were struck in 1964.
it is entirely plausible, and also what I accept for the reason, that these coins were struck as the Mint was attempting new methods of production and die preperation. they ended up with the Director as did other trials which eventually led to the SMS issues. the explanation from RogerB should be easy enough to prove since these coins, especially the Half-Dollars, appear to have easily seen diagnostics. if they are simply "first strikes" than there are logically other coins with similar diagnostics. those telltale signs didn't simply dissappear from the dies after the 10-20 coins were struck.
find a coin that matches and the mystery is solved. absent that it seems they are what they are purported to be. for a researcher of his caliber it should be an easy task.
@keets said:
... If they are simply "first strikes" than there are logically other coins with similar diagnostics. those telltale signs didn't simply dissappear from the dies after the 10-20 coins were struck.
find a coin that matches and the mystery is solved. absent that it seems they are what they are purported to be. for a researcher of his caliber it should be an easy task.
The other thing to consider is special preparation of the planchets. Finding these well-known die markers on an early die state striking that has different planchet characteristics from the alleged SMS strikes should prove insightful.
If Hansen did purchase the coin, he has not updated the sets to include yet. He does not have any of the 1964 SMS coins. I am not sure if these coins are important to him at this time.
Comments
I suppose that registry demand accounts for the high prices?
Guess the number:
In the next 60 days, how many threads will be started:
I have a 1964 SMS Coin . . . etc.
To each his own, people. Absent documentation from the US Mint, the controversy will always surround these "special" coins. I'm OK with that. As a Civil War token collector, sometimes a good story passed down over the years is all you have to go on. Records were not kept for private diesinkers and medalists like we have for the Mint.
Of course, that is what begs the question: if these are indeed experimental strikes or "SMS" coins, didnt anyone keep a record of them at the Mint?
For what it is worth, I have owned one example. The 1964 SMS dime. Wholly unimpressive to these eyes. And I tried to love it. Just kept thinking if it was cracked out of the slab, could I ever tell the difference between a "business strike" '64 if the two were side by side?
"Oh, the SMS has heavy die scratches..."
Not enough to get me going or keep me interested
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I thought the same thing.
Pete
So much for the hobby being dead............
I almost swallowed my gum, when I first saw this, but the more I think of it....let people collect what they like....It's good for the hobby.
Who am I to judge??
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Normally I would pass on this sort of coin, but the coffee stain at 10:00 piqued my interest much more.
The $77,500 bid seemed very reasonable, but add the buyer's fee and now we are in crazy territory.
the health of the hobby cannot be judged by the high end coins. Attend a major stamp auction and you'll see records set for 6 or 7 figure stamps. But most stamps sell at 10% of catalogue and that's AFTER they dropped the catalogue value. Mid range natural like Columbians are off 80% fron 25 years ago.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
.
SATIN proof Care to re-read this and correct your recto-cranial infarction mistake?
Now I'm truely impressed ! That ought to go well with the Gold Kennedy " First Coin Sold" from the ANA Show a few years back.
God bless the Coin Lovers that know no limits.
Non possum usque ad Latinam molestum est de typing
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb, Ricko
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Nice mix of Latin and maybe French and English, but I meant, of course, the "Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat'.
You are free to choose, but you are not free from the consequences of your choice.
How is it a mistake? All satin proof dollars are also proof dollars. All chihuahuas are dogs. All white dishes are dishes. All snorts are snarts.
a quick reference at CoinFacts reveals the following individual sales, though not of the same(or this) coin:
November 2006 --- $4,715.
July 2008 --- $6,038.
January 2010 --- $16,100.
September 2016 --- $47,000.
April 2019 --- $108,000.
certainly there are most likely differences in appearance and the coin IS important, but these prices are for PCGS encapsulated 1964 SMS SP67 Kennedy half-Dollars. it shows a clear interest and price escalation over the past 12+ years.
I would have preferred to spend that kind of money on a nice rarity instead of that. to each our own in this case best wishes all
It's not your mistake, @ACop.
Satin Proofs are proof Peace $1.
You've got me wrong
@cameonut, ironically, has no proofs, and you quoted irrefutable evidence (as yet uncontradicted by the @togglepress crowd, which is an issue for your numismatic, not sexual, ambiguity.
All snorts are snarts?
Whooooa 
Aristotlean or Boolean, this proposition is absurd 
All snirts are snarts. Sure !
I'm paging Heather. This talk about molesting possums doesn't belong on any family forum!
Ahh was thrown off by the silly alert telling me you had responded to my post. I didnt read the quoted text. I just quickly reacted in defense like a true warrior often does.
Yes I was wrong. I'm still surprised that these are so cheap given the rarity.
I double dog dare someone to go for Aotearoa2019...
Smitten with DBLCs.
Unless you like FBI agents breaking down your doors while reading posts about SMS coins (veering back on topic), I suggest no one copy my ID.
So.....bringing this thread back in track, just a little...
This coin is obviously not a "condition rarity." That is to say, no one purchased it because it is a top pop kind of coin. Rather, bidders are banking on its "absolute rarity." The story that these are experimental strikes. "Specimens."
That is highly controversial, as no records seem to exist.
Would the experts care to weigh in on their own reasons for believing or disbelieving the existence of 1964 SMS coins?
And be civil about it, please!
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I'd much rather have a 40% silver 77-D. They probably had just as much help being made as the subject coin had finding its way to Merkin. They are rarer, with 12 silver planchets ending up in Denver being struck (along with 6 40% Ike planchets). The only thing it has going against it is that it's considered an error and not something to include in a registry set.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Another thing to consider is how SMS coins are graded when compared with normal business strikes. Would the subject coin grade 68 or higher (even with the spot) if treated strictly as a normal business strike, making it a pop 1/0 coin? If so, would it bring that kind of scratch as a condition rarity?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
There already is a thread discussing this if you search.
The believers say they may have been presentation pieces or trial strikes. [Usual back door to the Mint.] The Kennedy halves 1st appeared in 1993 from a coin dealer (Lester Merkin) who supposedly got them from a Mint employee. Merkin supposedly bought the estate of former Mint Director Eva Adams and these coins may have come from there. Per PCGS (Jaime Hernandez), "some if not all" of the SMS coins source from Merkin. This makes them suspiciously similar to the 1913 Liberty nickel fantasy coins.
The disbelievers point to the lack of records and the die polish/prep issues explain the finish, as already discussed in this thread.
Personally, the evidence is not very compelling. Why did it take 30 years for them to appear? Wouldn't a coin dealer (Merkin) have hyped them while alive? Why is there no record of striking? Either trial strikes or presentation pieces should have some record.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
@ColonelJessup I truly enjoy your posts and continue to learn more about Numismatics by reading them.
Thanks very much for your excellent thought provoking contributions to this discussion forum.👍
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
I believe Eva Adams passed away in 1991, so if Lester Merkin obtained the coins from her estate, he couldn't have had them very long before he passed away in 1992.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yeah, I don't know. Just quoting our hosts:
https://pcgs.com/News/1964-Special-Mint-Set-Coins
I didn't care to do any more research. LOL. It's one of those "cinderella" coins in the hobby that there is no point in trying to sort out. You either believe or you don't.
All comments reflect the opinion of the author, even when irrefutably accurate.
Why is there no record of striking?
at the time these were struck the Mint was sort of cloaked in secrecy due to the perceived hoarding of coins by collectors and the Mint's attempt to thwart more hoarding. that is the reasoning for the three SMS years, coins struck at all Mints with no MM. I have never seen anything published which states at what time of year in 1964 that the coins in question were struck or even if they were struck in 1964.
it is entirely plausible, and also what I accept for the reason, that these coins were struck as the Mint was attempting new methods of production and die preperation. they ended up with the Director as did other trials which eventually led to the SMS issues. the explanation from RogerB should be easy enough to prove since these coins, especially the Half-Dollars, appear to have easily seen diagnostics. if they are simply "first strikes" than there are logically other coins with similar diagnostics. those telltale signs didn't simply dissappear from the dies after the 10-20 coins were struck.
find a coin that matches and the mystery is solved. absent that it seems they are what they are purported to be. for a researcher of his caliber it should be an easy task.
The other thing to consider is special preparation of the planchets. Finding these well-known die markers on an early die state striking that has different planchet characteristics from the alleged SMS strikes should prove insightful.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
The new owner of this coin might be eating possum for quite some time...
Now and when selling if the under bidder has vanished?
I'm not an academic, but I thought the burden of proof for this kind of thing was on the positive camp.
I doubt that Ms. Eva Adams would have put any orders for this kind of oddball thing on paper. She was a very experienced D.C. player.
If Hansen did purchase the coin, he has not updated the sets to include yet. He does not have any of the 1964 SMS coins. I am not sure if these coins are important to him at this time.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004