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1687 Spanish Silver Cob Coin - Genuine?

InGodWeTrustCoinsInGodWeTrustCoins Posts: 150 ✭✭✭
edited May 8, 2019 5:54PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I listed this coin on eBay yesterday. It was quickly removed and I got a 'restriction' on my account. The reason was because one of their experts had determined this coin to be counterfeit. I don't know hardly anything about these, but it looks legit to me.

What do y'all think? Any information on the coin would be appreciated.


Comments

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019 6:17PM

    @InGodWeTrustCoins said:
    I listed this coin on eBay yesterday. It was quickly removed and I got a 'restriction' on my account. The reason was because one of their experts had determined this coin to be counterfeit. I don't know hardly anything about these, but it looks legit to me.

    What do y'all think? Any information on the coin would be appreciated.


    Also post in the world and ancient forum.

    Edit to add link: https://forums.collectors.com/categories/world-ancient-coins-forum

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,804 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019 6:30PM

    The edges of the holes in the 8s and 6 seem too sharp, relative to the other edges on the coin.
    This would suggest "tooled".
    Or maybe the dirt which fills them simply has a high contrast.

    I don't have the expertise to identify counterfeits for this series.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019 6:44PM

    Looks like a cast copy of a Guatemalan countermarked 8 reales (KM96.2).

    Countermarked Potosi example:

  • jgennjgenn Posts: 744 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's certainly not a US Coin.

    It resembles an 8 reales from Potosi. These should weigh very close to 27 grams. Why not weight it to see if could possibly be 90% silver?

    The circular depression in the first photo is supposed to be a countermark from a different time and country, however since it appears to have the same mushy appearance as the rest of the item, I would guess that this a cast copy.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,261 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As jgenn noted, check out the detail in the countermark in the image I added.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019 7:06PM

    The coin is a very poorly made cast counterfeit.

    I was going to ask you all to look at the coin and tell me why but if you don't know what a genuine cob looks like, you wouldn't know. Let's have some fun anyway. If you wish to play...blow the image up and describe some of the things you see. You don't need to know anything as this is a TEST of your "eye-for-detail." B)

    For example, I see fine scratches and possible file marks. One member saw sharp holes in the numerals. What do you see?

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,238 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am 99% sure that if you were to scroll through The Numismatist from the 1970’s you would find this piece in either Virgil Hancock’s “Featuring Fakes” column or the ANACS column.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Walt_AltmenWalt_Altmen Posts: 184 ✭✭✭

    I see “made in china”. >:)

  • MrMonkeySwag96MrMonkeySwag96 Posts: 121 ✭✭✭

    It looks crudely made like an actual cob. Weren't the planchets made by cutting the ends of silver bars? Most of the modern replicas look so evidently fake.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,238 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walt_Altmen said:
    I see “made in china”. >:)

    No, this is 1960’s-1970’s era.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Walt_Altmen said:
    I see “made in china”. >:)

    @MrMonkeySwag96 said:
    It looks crudely made like an actual cob. Weren't the planchets made by cutting the ends of silver bars? Most of the modern replicas look so evidently fake.

    If you guys want to play, what do you see on the coin?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    I am 99% sure that if you were to scroll through The Numismatist from the 1970’s you would find this piece in either Virgil Hancock’s “Featuring Fakes” column or the ANACS column.

    I'll take that bet; but it does look like something from the 60's - 70's.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,707 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a poor cast as evident by metal porosity and a seam.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,574 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    The coin is a very poorly made cast counterfeit.

    I was going to ask you all to look at the coin and tell me why but if you don't know what a genuine cob looks like, you wouldn't know. Let's have some fun anyway. If you wish to play...blow the image up and describe some of the things you see. You don't need to know anything as this is a TEST of your "eye-for-detail." B)

    For example, I see fine scratches and possible file marks. One member saw sharp holes in the numerals. What do you see?

    There appears to be a seam on the edge as most cast coins have. Porosity can indicate casting bubbles, but so many of these are sea salvage I don't think that is indicative by itself. The countermark being as weak as the rest of the coin is also indicative as it is so far recessed it should wear less - see the real one above.

    It almost looks like someone retooled the mold to bring out the detail which is why the holes in the 8's are so super-round and the edges of the boxes super square.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,574 ✭✭✭✭✭

    By the way, for those of you who (wrongly) insist that eBay doesn't care about fakes: please note the OP's immediate punishment.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • tommy44tommy44 Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'll play, as others have already noted,

    -lots of pits that would appear on cast copies
    -lots of opposing file marks, way to many to be "adjustment" marks
    -does look like a seam around the edge
    -numbers look hokey
    -I also see an unusually large number of almost perfectly round sharp edged large holes or pits that don't have the rounded and worn edges of the other features on the coin
    -and last but not least, does anyone else see Edvard Munch's "The Scream" peering out from the central left edge of the top image?

    it's crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Insider2 said:
    The coin is a very poorly made cast counterfeit.

    I was going to ask you all to look at the coin and tell me why but if you don't know what a genuine cob looks like, you wouldn't know. Let's have some fun anyway. If you wish to play...blow the image up and describe some of the things you see. You don't need to know anything as this is a TEST of your "eye-for-detail." B)

    For example, I see fine scratches and possible file marks. One member saw sharp holes in the numerals. What do you see?

    There appears to be a seam on the edge as most cast coins have. Porosity can indicate casting bubbles, but so many of these are sea salvage I don't think that is indicative by itself. The countermark being as weak as the rest of the coin is also indicative as it is so far recessed it should wear less - see the real one above.

    It almost looks like someone retooled the mold to bring out the detail which is why the holes in the 8's are so super-round and the edges of the boxes super square.

    You've pretty much nailed it. That line near the rim is very unusual. I'd like to see the edge. BTW, bubbles from a cast look nothing like sea water corrosion. Others can magnify the image and see the perfectly round tiny depressions caused by bubbles.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,574 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Well ,we don't know it was a one-time listing. And, for all we know, those people have all been "restricted".

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,902 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019 7:51AM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    Well ,we don't know it was a one-time listing. And, for all we know, those people have all been "restricted".

    Seller is not restricted and still has many listings in coins & paper money. I have had dozens of this sellers listings removed only to have him relist them. He used to photo the counterfeits now he just hijacks photos of real coins. Go ahead and buy something from him and see if you get a genuine coin, then report to ebay and see if they do anything.

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/timothycrsn1/m.html?_trksid=p3692

    Please make sure to report back.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,574 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019 10:56AM

    @ifthevamzarockin said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    Well ,we don't know it was a one-time listing. And, for all we know, those people have all been "restricted".

    Seller is not restricted and still has many listings in coins & paper money. I have had dozens of this sellers listings removed only to have him relist them. He used to photo the counterfeits now he just hijacks photos of real coins. Go ahead and buy something from him and see if you get a genuine coin, then report to ebay and see if they do anything.

    https://www.ebay.com/sch/timothycrsn1/m.html?_trksid=p3692

    Please make sure to report back.

    Restricted doesn't mean banned. Sometimes they limit the number of things you can list or something like that.

  • InGodWeTrustCoinsInGodWeTrustCoins Posts: 150 ✭✭✭

    Thank you all for the great responses! I now know why eBay removed the listing however, I don't know why they put the 1 day restriction (we did get that removed) on our account. I have almost 5000 positive feedback, and we sell almost 400 coins a month.

    I would just like to make it clear that the current discussion on this thread about an eBay seller selling counterfeits is NOT us, they are referring to a different seller.

  • ifthevamzarockinifthevamzarockin Posts: 8,902 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "I would just like to make it clear that the current discussion on this thread about an eBay seller selling counterfeits is NOT us, they are referring to a different seller."

    That is correct. You have outstanding feedback! I would buy from you. :)

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,371 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Looks legit to me" will do nothing but get you in trouble. This is the age of fakes. Authentication of this type of item is a must.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • JBKJBK Posts: 15,682 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019 1:59PM

    Cast copy. For the reasons noted plus one more.

    If I can explain my impression correctly....

    Most cobs are not struck completely because the faces of the dies did not reach certain parts of the uneven planchet surface. However on your "coin", the missing/unstruck areas are above the struck areas. There should be no unstruck areas higher in relief than the struck areas - that is contrary to the conditions that lead to incomplete impressions.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 34,574 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @JBK said:
    Cast copy. For the reasons noted plus one more.

    If I can explain my impression correctly....

    Most cobs are not struck completely because the faces of the dies did not reach certain parts of the uneven planchet surface. However on your "coin", the missing/unstruck areas are above the struck areas. There should be no unstruck areas higher in relief than the struck areas - that is contrary to the conditions that lead to incomplete impressions.

    ?????
    I'm slightly confused by this. As a cast copy, it probably looks like the original excerpt for the items noted.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 15,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Let me try again.

    The relief of the unstuck areas should not exceed the relief of the struck details. But on this thing some of them appear to be higher.

  • ColonialcoinColonialcoin Posts: 661 ✭✭✭✭

    Definitely a cast copy of a Bolivia 8 reales. The grainy, mushy look gives it away.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Happy to hear your restriction was removed.... I am not an expert on these coins, but learned a lot from the answers here... Thanks @Insider2 for challenging us to find the details... Cheers, RickO

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 23,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

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