Very PL 1779-Mo 8 Reales in NGC 62PL w/ Gold WINGS
Senator32
Posts: 407 ✭✭✭✭✭
I recently acquired this amazing 1779-Mo FF 8 Reales in NGC 62PL and I am just flabbergasted at how well struck it is and how amazingly reflective it is....it is like a modern proof. Additional research has shown a handful of PL 8 Reales, but most all of them are later Charles IIII varieties that get more common after 1800....but even then they are scarce. One of the only other ones I found was the same 1779-Mo FF date (http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=46&lot=1098&lang=1) and it made me wonder....are there any records of Special Strikes or presentation strikes made at the Mexico mint in 1779? That is when Spain joined the US against Britain so...timing wise it would make sense. It would also make sense why these two examples survived in such nice condition. Just curious if anyone knows any path of research I can take that may shed some light on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuFJa_R28MA
Comments
Very nice, I like it !!!
Thanks me too! Never seen one quite like it. Trying to find evidence if Mexico gave these as gifts to delegates. Any research pointers or books to read would be appreciated.
Nice, nice, nice.
Lovely coin. That date comes PL and AU-U coins (usually with some hairlines) are easy to find, but yours seems exceptional.
You might care to look into the 1774 Potosi old 8R hoard. Any of the major players have had multiples so it is easy to find photos. All are PL to varying degrees and sharply struck. The Bolivian Carlos III 8R bust punch is shallower and the fields are flatter than corresponding Mexican 8R so they really do look little hand mirrors. There are 67 coins at NGC alone graded MS63-MS66--not that hard to find a nice one at a non stupid price.
Very nice 8 reales Senator32 ! Mexcian 8 reales from 1770's are tough in high grade much less PL...!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Thanks for the information! I will do some addtional research along this area. I have only seen one other 1779-MO that was PL ....but have seen some from other mints. What makes me most curious is the strike depth (it is struck up like a modern proof...never seen an 8R like that)....and the strike is doubled (and not machine doubled...it was struck more than once - look at DEI, portrait and the date). Take a look at this image and you can see the multiple strikes:
It could just be this date as you mention - but being that 1779 was the year that Spain joined the US against Britain and there was a lot of political meetings, made me wonder if 79-Mo was has presentation strikes.
Sorry, I don’t think that there is anything to suggest that it is a special striking.
Latin American Collection
Agreed. I've encountered numerous examples over the last decade that were either PL or very close to it in CIII-FVII portraits. Bright and shiny is not my thing, though, so i only owned a couple of examples in the past and both were the CIV type.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Having collected for the past 30 years, I too have seen semi-PL and even a few PL 8Rs (mostly later dates than this or dates not from the Mo mint)...but none I have seen had been struck multiple times. Do you have any thoughts about that? I appreciate the feedback, just have never seen a 8R like this one - looks completely different than any of the PL examples I have seen in the past.
When i first saw your post, i thought you had the Ex Millennia / Hesselgesser one, but that one didn't have the doubling (see below). Strike doubling is not rare. There are examples offered every few months through various auctions in US and Europe and most time doubling is not even called out in the description. These were struck with fly presses (large manual screw presses). The screw was set in motion by workmen pulling at the weighted end of a long horizontal bar and descended with great force to hit the blank resting on the bottom die. Blanks could be struck at the rate of one every two seconds, but it was extremely tiring and the teams of workmen could not work for long at a time. The moneyer, usually young and nimble, had the task of flicking the newly struck coin away from the dies and putting a fresh blank in its place. This had to happen in the 2 seconds it took for the press to bounce back up and be brought down again by the press workers pulling on the weights. As you can imagine, instances where the coin was not properly cleared the bottom die are numerous. So are the die clashes. However, i do think think that what you're seeing in terms of sharpness of strike and PL qualities are due to the double strike. I just think this coin was produced as part of normal operations.
Btw, here's the Ex Millennia / Hesselgesser example
Here's another sharp strike PL with doubling:
Few more general PL examples i have on my hard drive:
8 Reales Madness Collection
Thank you very much for the research and background. The Ex Millennia / Hesselgesser example is the only other Charles III example from the MO mint I can find and it just so happened to be the same year, mint and assayer...so got me wondering. I have seen Bolivian PL examples like you posted - and that 1790-Mo I have seen many like with a semi-PL nature. The Ex Millennia / Hesselgesser example does not have the doubling so it must just be a one-off where they struck it twice with the method you mentioned.
All and all I think you are correct - my example just looks crazy in hand in it is throwing me off (plus I had other dealers...even a very knowledgeable one agree it could be a SP). So...for now ill just accept that it is probably one of the best struck up 8Rs in PL and be happy with that. I just find it fun looking into the Why and how.
No worries! I would think that if someone back then wanted to do a special strike, they would either try to increase the weighs (thus increasing the force) or did a multiple strike, but hand-inspecting the coin afterwards to make sure strike doubling is not as obvious. After all, you would want to showcase your Mint's craftsmanship and having a legend that was not fully struck-up due to the second strike being slightly off and obliterating finer points on letters would not be that.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Here is the Millennia speciman crossed from and NGC holder.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
@Senator32 all said, your coin is very beautiful.
Mine:
Latin American Collection
These are all very nice...but frankly my example is on a different level of PL and strike. Most of these are Semi at best. All lovely though - love 8Rs.
Some very interesting doubling on DEI.
If all elements are not offset uniformly, then an alternate explanation is that the die was ground down and all design elements were re-punched -- what looks like strike doubling might be the traces of the original die punches. However, it looks more like strike doubling to me.
Here's my 1779 from Mexico City.
Senator, the effect you see is what happens when the second strike is slightly off-set, resulting in the previously struck-up legend / dentils to be pushed back down and flattened by the next strike. Since metal is now harder in the those areas due to being forced into the die elements, it doesn't obliterate the previous design completely during the consequent strike.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Here's a more drastic example of what you're seeing:
8 Reales Madness Collection
Here's one I just parted with a few weeks ago:
8 Reales Madness Collection
Amazing coin! Sorry you had to part with it.
Thank you for the examples and info. Your 79-Mo also looks amazing. Appreciate you showing me the doubling on that example too - I had never ran across this before.
Hey I recognize that coin. Here's my picture showing the strike doubling. In my experience, this sort of doubling is not uncommon for portraits. Click the picture to blow it up larger.
@bidask If that 1779 in PCGS AU58 ever needs a new home, please let me know!
Nice coin, Senator!
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We'll have to arm wrestle for it
8 Reales Madness Collection
Ha ha!