NGC to PCGS Crossover questions for those that are successful at it..
Coin Finder
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Choice one: Do you cross at any grade? If so do you get the grade you want more often or less often?
Choice two: Do you cross at the exact same grade? If so, how often are you successful?
Thanks!
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Comments
Same grade less than 50%
Well my NGC MS-66 plus coin did cross to a PCGS MS-66 plus. It was a 1882 CC. It has a gold shield on the back, but I can't get a picture to pull up with the cert. Thanks everyone.
0% for both...because I’m happy to buy coins from either
I buy the coin, not the holder. I know everyone says that. In my chosen area of collecting I prefer my GSA coins to be graded by NGC. I do not like, at all, that PCGS incases the GSA in another layer of plastic. I also feel that PCGS does not grade as tight as NGC does. I research prices realized and the NGC graded coins bring more $$$. With that said, I have crossed, several PCGS graded coins that I stole ,price wise to NGC. Since I bought the coin, I was confident that the coins I choose to purchase in PCGS holders .will cross. I am 5 for 5.
JMO TD
Rainbow Stars
I have a lot of experience of this with Lincoln Cents. For me when I do a "cross any" on Lincoln Cents., typically PCGS drops things one grade from NGC.
For example, an NGC MS66BN will typically cross to PCGS one grade down at MS65BN. When I say typically I mean that in about 100 cases of these "cross any" submissions (on high grade Lincoln cents, usually between MS64 and MS67) , maybe 60 (or 60%) have dropped 1 grade when crossing.
I would say maybe 20 (or 20%) crossed at grade. Maybe another 10 (or 10%) dropped 2 grades when crossing, this is rarer but does happen more than one would think. Maybe 5 or 5% increased 1 grade (this is RARE! for me at least). Leaving 5 or 5% that came back DNC (Did not cross) meaning they found a problem like damage or AT -- in this case they return the coin in the NGC slab with a DNC label rubber banded.
I heard from someone else that PCGS IS actually tougher on copper than NGC (in other words, NGC tends to overgrade copper). This could be and I've seen some reflection of this in the price guides where PCGS graded copper tends to have higher guide prices. So this seems a more plausible explanation.
On another note, I have a friend tho that also has submitted a lot of NGC high grade lincolns and he's had a lot more instances of UPGRADES with cross any. Maybe he's better at grading than I am and submits better stuff? So clearly results do vary. I can only share my experience.
On the few cases I've send silver to pcgs for crossing, it seems to come back the same grade typically.
So my experience is copper coins will get higher grades at NGC than it would at PCGS -- but silver is more similar (more of a level playing field) and comes back the same grade more often.
Here's some examples I've had of a 2 grade drops during crossover:
This one fell 1 grade:
Here's one that crossed at grade, however in between, when I first submitted the NGC slab, I submitted it "CROSS AT GRADE ONLY" and it came back DNC (Did Not Cross). At which point I cracked the coin out and submitted it raw, and that 2nd time it did come back 67 (altho the color class changed from RB to BN, which I agreed with). so this took 2 submissions to get it in PCGS plastic at the 67 level:
Here is a silver coin that was kind of all over the map for a while, but eventually upgraded from the NGC grade. However I had to crack the coin out of the Planchet Flaw slab and submit raw to get a problem free grade:
These are all pretty interesting case studies. I guess this really shows that grading is more of an art than a science -- and ultimately is just an opinion at one moment in time by three people. And is always subject to change.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
In terms of NGC to PCGS I only cross when forced to. Coin needs dip, damaged Holder, etc. coin cracked, sent in, and box checked any grade. Ditto for Anacs, ICG material (crossover). Grading fees are an expensive cost against my business and I need a material justification to incur them.
My last PCGS submission an ICG and NGC cracked out both came back same grade as before.
If one has a coin where blue sheet for Pcgs considerably higher and wants cross NGC to Pcgs: I would specify on submission form current grade or higher. In this scenario I will not take a downgrade.
Some examples:
1884-cc dollar NGC 66 - no reason cross as blue sheet bid same at $520. CDN bid 625, a downgrade to MS 65 would be a bad choice as CDN bid 330 in 65.
1897-O dollar NGC 66 blue sheet NGC 43000, PCGS blue sheet 65000. I can see why someone would want cross to Pcgs but would specify on grading form same grade or above. A downgrade wb a costly fumble as CDN GS bid for MS66 is 80000 vs 55000 for MS 65.
In summary I am in the game to make positive yardage and score (sell for profit) with what I have on roster not fumble the ball lose yardage or worse. For pricing on a, b, c coins a plan rule of thumb say for bourse or online store could be: CDN plus 50 pct A, 30 pct B, 10 pct C (or ones own custom matrix).
I only cross for my set and always put any grade because you paying for the service and it seems wasteful not to just cross it since your being charged I don’t stress about it but I’ve never been in a high dollar situation at that point if it where thousands of dollars on the line I would rather CAC it than cross it
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/publishedset/209923
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/quarters/washington-quarters-major-sets/washington-quarters-date-set-circulation-strikes-1932-present/album/209923
I do not attempt to cross coins... either way. I buy coins I like and do not sell coins... so I am happy with my collection. It would probably be different if I were a dealer...Cheers, RickO
I recently sent two coins for crossover. A 66 DPL Morgan did not cross and a 55 SLH went from 55 to 53.
I have done same grade crossovers, NGC, etc. to PCGS, periodically during the last 15+ years and it has taught me two things:
1). I need to look things over very closely and carefully when choosing what to attempt.
2). when something DNC's I need to look it over closely to see what I missed.
most recently since PCGS began encapsulating SC$'s I have started to cross those medals. I have found that when I submit to "cross at same grade" PCGS tends to agree with NGC about 80% of the time. the medals that come back as DNC will cross at about 50% if I resubmit them to "cross at any grade" and the remaining 50% tend to grade one point lower. the most difficult medals to cross seem to be dark brown copper/bronze.
RickO's approach is a good one, buy what we like and keep it in that holder. that is hard with SC$'s because for a very long time the only reliable TPG grading them was NGC and I don't really like their capsule. additionally, I value the TrueView images since I struggle with the camera.
There might be more to learn from failures than successes.
Only done it twice and both straight crossed but they were beaned at the time.
(No beans on new PCGS slabs)
I think the beans may have helped.
My Saint Set
I've done a few crossovers with somewhere around a 65-70% success rate. After a while I decided that if I needed the coin in a certain brand of plastic, it was way easier and way cheaper to buy it that way to start with.
I've always 'crossed at any grade', and have had great luck. I've crossed from NGC/ANACS, to PCGS plastic. My sample size is very small (~20 coins) but most have crossed at the same grade, with a couple going a tick higher, and with a couple getting a "+" added as well. That said, all were MS62-MS65 Barbers worth under $800. I wouldn't submit a $10K coin in this manner. This would be insanity.
Dave