New PWCC Stickers..

mintonlypls

Starting w/auction #5...PWCC will be rolling out new stickers:

PWCC-S...superior eye appeal for the professional grade (top 5%)
PWCC-E...exceptional eye appeal for the professional grade (top 15%)
PWCC-A...above average eye appeal for the professional grade (top 30%)

handyman

Are they professional graders?

70ToppsFanatic

@handyman said:
Are they professional graders?

The stickers are great for marketing, but they also introduce a bunch of opportunities for abuse:

Do PWCC's biggest consigners receive preferential treatment in having their cards get stickered when compared to smaller consigners?

Does the person in charge of stickers at PWCC put a few extra undeserved stickers on cards into an auction to drive results?

Is there a way to prevent counterfeiting of stickers so that private sale purchases can be checked to make sure the sticker corresponds to the flip number in a PWCC-maintained database that is publicly available?

Keep it simple. Salespeople should stick to selling. Let the graders do the grading.

krisd3279

Unless there is a database maintained by PWCC that is accessible to the public this seems like a bad idea.

jfkheat

@handyman said:
Are they professional graders?

Copied from a PWCC auction: "We at PWCC are not professional graders so we trust in the reputation and opinion of 3rd party professional graders. Professional grading is subjective and different 3rd party graders will often disagree over the grading on a single card. Such a disagreement is not a justifiable reason for a return with PWCC"

With all these stickers and opinions on the grades it seem like they are trying to be "professional graders"

doubledragon

I thought the old system worked just fine. Good front and back scans, let the customer decide.

jay0791

When you buy a PWCC card that is designated HE of PQ you get a back sticker and a cert card.

Cert card is generic and cannot be identified to a single item.

Once it leaves PWCC I can see potential problems.

DotStore

I've never won a designated PQ or HE card from PWCC. How strong is the sticker they put on the back of the card? There has to be a way to confirm the PWCC Certificate goes with the exact card. Maybe a Serial Number and a picture of the card (front and back) kept on file at PWCC?

And what a headache in the future to re-holder the original card (if there was a better card holder that the TPG's come out with) - how does the TPG transfer the PWCC Sticker to the new holder?

steel75

Why should I give a damn what the seller's opinion is? It's been graded already!. It's ALL about $$. This Psa 9 is better than that Psa 9, so it's worth more......at least that's OUR opinion. Who are you again? Oh that's right, the person selling it.

It strikes me a little as the guy who sells a raw card and says it would grade this and charges that price.

mintonlypls

I am not a big consignor...but have had 1 card out of 6 stickered PWCC-HE. So...I don't think big consignors receive preferential treatment. I am not a big fan though of expanding the sticker program...let's keep it simple to two stickers...HE AND PQ!

lawnmowerman

@steel75 said:
Why should I give a damn what the seller's opinion is? It's been graded already!. It's ALL about $$. This Psa 9 is better than that Psa 9, so it's worth more......at least that's OUR opinion. Who are you again? Oh that's right, the person selling it.

I somewhat agree but I believe the new stickers will work as long as they are being honest about the designations and not just applying them willy-nilly, just to talk up a lesser example. We all know with graded cards that are given the same grade, some examples have better eye appeal than others. For instance a 9 that is slightly off-center compared to a centered 9 with a fisheye in an inconspicuous location, the fisheye card would be more desirable to most.

brad31

@krisd3279 said:
Unless there is a database maintained by PWCC that is accessible to the public this seems like a bad idea.

There is - on their website you can see all past sales with scans searchable by card and by designation. I used it all the time before buying cards on Ebay to see how it compares to a decent sample of cards in the same grade. Have used it less since PSA launched their recent auction prices.

I did buy one PWCC HE not from PWCC. Looked at the card to verify it was the same card and could also see what the buyer (now seller) paid and how long ago.

ReggieCleveland

Heh.

handyman

How long until they get into the decimals? top .9%, .8,.7,.6,.5,.4,.00000000001,.00000000000000001
Lots of potential!

waxman2745

How can they tell if the card is in the top 5% for the grade?

The only way to determine this IMO is to get all graded examples of a particular card in the same room and pick out the best 5%.
Using the 89 Upper Deck Griffey in PSA 9 as an example, there can only be 1,150 of the 23,000 graded that could get the PWCC-S label.

olb31

Their stickers sound like something the grading companies should/could already be doing with their labels. It's great marketing, but this should be what the TPG companies should be promoting on their own. There are many 10's out there that look worse than the 9's. If it looks like a strong 8 shouldn't it be an 8.5? I have felt for all along that the 1981 and up cards need to have high end 10's since PSA has issued so many 10's for some items.

akuracy503

It takes the guessing work out of reviewing images online. Although it's not PWCC whos grading it gives the buyer an honest assessment on where the card stands in terms of eye appeal. No harm no foul. A great feature that adds to the description and detail of items being listed.

akuracy503

Also nothing is an exact science with TPG's and we should not hold the same standards to AH's. It's just matter of opinion and in the eye of the beholder. The more descriptive the better.

JoeBanzai

STOP THE WHINING!

rcmb3220

Based on what I’m reading on blowout they have no business making these types of evaluations. And are really bad at timing.

I’m going under the assumption that this isn’t some sort of joke.

JoeBanzai

They are in business to increase both their profit and those of the consignor.

They are NOT grading cards.

You don't have to like how they run the business. If it works, they will continue.

ElvisP

Just another way to gouge the buyer. It should be up to the bidders to determine where they like the eye appeal or not. I think most of us can tell if a card has good eye appeal or not. What will they come up with next?

LOTSOS

@ElvisP said:
Just another way to gouge the buyer. It should be up to the bidders to determine where they like the eye appeal or not. I think most of us can tell if a card has good eye appeal or not. What will they come up with next?

I don't understand your logic. How are they gouging the buyer? So buyers no longer look at the scans and just bid on description? Do they take control of your computer or phone, enter a bid amount well above what you'd pay, and then hit the bid button? And no I don't mean you specifically. They are in sales not buys. They are promoting items they are selling and doing it well. VERY WELL! You may not like their strategy or technique but is it because it's driving prices higher on items or because they are being dishonest in your opinion in someway? Because those two things are not necessarily the same.

If they were in it for a short term cash grab sure I could understand how they could abuse those stickers. But after building what appears to be a multimillion dollar business and multi million dollar long term storage facility I'd wager they are in it for the long haul and because of this recognize that abusing the stickers would be detrimental to them in the long term.

I'm not here to defend them. There are clearly issues with shilling in all auctions theirs included. I've consigned with them multiple times. One of those consignments was to cover a card that I purchased. Once I had covered my debt I bid on and won one card that I was really hesitant to part with in the first place. I bid an amount that was well more than any sane person would bid to ensure that the card would be returned to me. Part of me hoped that they would call me out on it. They did not. At least a "hey what's the story with you bidding on one of your items?" Email or call. Nothing. Not sure but eBay would seem to hinder this in my opinion. An auction house would need be able to identify all of its bidders to truly be able to identify simple unmasked shilling. Multi layer shilling would be a much more difficult issue to resolve. To me that is a much bigger issue then the stickers.

lawyer05

@LOTSOS said:

@ElvisP said:
Just another way to gouge the buyer. It should be up to the bidders to determine where they like the eye appeal or not. I think most of us can tell if a card has good eye appeal or not. What will they come up with next?

I don't understand your logic. How are they gouging the buyer? So buyers no longer look at the scans and just bid on description? Do they take control of your computer or phone, enter a bid amount well above what you'd pay, and then hit the bid button? And no I don't mean you specifically. They are in sales not buys. They are promoting items they are selling and doing it well. VERY WELL! You may not like their strategy or technique but is it because it's driving prices higher on items or because they are being dishonest in your opinion in someway? Because those two things are not necessarily the same.

If they were in it for a short term cash grab sure I could understand how they could abuse those stickers. But after building what appears to be a multimillion dollar business and multi million dollar long term storage facility I'd wager they are in it for the long haul and because of this recognize that abusing the stickers would be detrimental to them in the long term.

I'm not here to defend them. There are clearly issues with shilling in all auctions theirs included. I've consigned with them multiple times. One of those consignments was to cover a card that I purchased. Once I had covered my debt I bid on and won one card that I was really hesitant to part with in the first place. I bid an amount that was well more than any sane person would bid to ensure that the card would be returned to me. Part of me hoped that they would call me out on it. They did not. At least a "hey what's the story with you bidding on one of your items?" Email or call. Nothing. Not sure but eBay would seem to hinder this in my opinion. An auction house would need be able to identify all of its bidders to truly be able to identify simple unmasked shilling. Multi layer shilling would be a much more difficult issue to resolve. To me that is a much bigger issue then the stickers.

correct, they dont need you buying their cards, they have investors that give them money and say here build me a portofolio of investment cards and they will bid more for those cards.

Stingray

JoeBanzai

I know when I sell something on ebay that has a quality I think is better than average, I point it out.

Does that make me a grader?

No, I do not make up stickers, perhaps I should?

fergie23

I think adding the HE designation was a really good move and did generate additional interest and bidding on items for them. However, 3 levels seems a bit excessive to me. That said, it doesn't change anything for me with respect to bidding on their items or consigning with them.

I do believe they will give preferential treatment to their biggest consignors. No different than PSA doing the same to their best customers. IMO that preferential treatment will be the ability to talk directly to/lobby Brent about specific cards that they feel should get a sticker. I don't have any problem with it because it will have exactly zero impact on me but anyone that doesn't believe that will happen is fooling themselves.

Robb

olb31

@CrissCriss said:
What’s the big deal? If you’re born with two eyes - or maybe even one - you can see the card for yourself. Especially with those high res scans.

This board is populated with seasoned collectors or dealers. Complaints here seem nonsensical, jealousy ridden, or both.

TPG is supposed to take the "beauty in the eye of the beholder" somewhat out of the equation. this is why people pay high amounts for PSA 9 and PSA 10 cards. The investor market wants a TPG that is consistent for grading and for authentication. The ultimate problem is that there are a varying clarity of PSA 9 and PSA 10 cards. Some look way off centered, some have print dots, etc. This leeway in grading causes varying PSA 9's, etc. This leeway is probably ok for 1971 and back, but 1972 and up not so much. Too many 10's look more like 8 and 9's just based on centering alone. And alot psa 8's look more like 9's and 10's just based on centering. If PSA could do grading all over, they would have put a heavier weight on centering. This would have limited the PWCC concept, because the collectors/investors put a heavy emphasis on centering.

lawyer05

do they have a sticker that says, this is a crappy 9 ?

olb31

@lawyer05 said:
do they have a sticker that says, this is a crappy 9 ?

"?" for a bad 10

demondeacs

I don't have a problem with it. He's in business to make money--it is what it is. However, if I consign a card and it doesn't get a "high end" sticker, how am I supposed to resubmit? lol

waxman2745

@lawyer05 said:
do they have a sticker that says, this is a crappy 9 ?

Agreed. If the card does not get a sticker, is it automatically assumed that it is a crappy 9? It could be just the right condition for the grade, but without the sticker it might be considered "low end".

craig44

this is purely marketing. If I am potentially purchasing an item, I ALWAYS take the sellers opinion with the tiniest of grains of salt. That could be a car salesman, appliance salesman or a baseball card consignor. They, of course, are attempting to drive the selling price as high as possible. As such, their opinion is biased. Their stickers do not amount to a hill of beans to me. I will inspect any card I may purchase and see if I like the card.

They do need to address their policies as it pertains to PWCC being graders. by attempting to differentiate between graded cards, they are in effect grading the graders. so, as has been spoken about at length in that other forum, they can either fall back and give responsibility to the TPG for issues, or PWCC needs to be held personally responsible for every single card that goes through that place.

Jimmy_Commonpants

@olb31 said:

This leeway in grading causes varying PSA 9's, etc. ..... Too many 10's look more like 8 and 9's just based on centering alone. And alot psa 8's look more like 9's and 10's just based on centering. If PSA could do grading all over, they would have put a heavier weight on centering. This would have limited the PWCC concept, because the collectors/investors put a heavy emphasis on centering.

PSA's stated criteria for a PSA 10 is that centering can be no worse than 55/45 to 60/40. I have personally never seen a card graded PSA 10 with "worse" centering than 60/40, and most are 55/45 or dead centered. In fact, I see plenty of cards graded PSA 9 that look 60/40 with no other issues. Do you think worse than 55/45 centering should automatically prevent a card from being a 10? Or should worse than 50/50 prevent it from being a 10? How do you think centering should be weighed more heavily?

thunderdan

What we really need are some insightful stickers unrelated to pieces of cardboard. These are ones we did recently at work related to Tax Day and Earth Day. They are iphone app stickers. Sorry if you hate them.

Aspie_Rocco

This looks like the same or similar extra grading the CAC does for older US coins.
The exact same questions, controversies, and concerns surround CAC threads on the coin forum.

In my opinion there is a lot more room for tomfoolery with coins in regards to doctoring or altering the surface of coins.
Having an industry accepted leader give a third opinion is helpful when buying coins from several hundred to $1K+ each.

CAC stickers exceptional high quality (for the grade) coins with either a green sticker or a gold one (for under-graded). And coins with a CAC sticker often sell for more than non stickered coins of the same grade. Like any human, mistakes are occasionally made, but on the average the CAC stickers on PCGS or NGC represent higher end examples.

Sounds like PWCC has an identical business model.

olb31

@Jimmy_Commonpants said:

@olb31 said:

This leeway in grading causes varying PSA 9's, etc. ..... Too many 10's look more like 8 and 9's just based on centering alone. And alot psa 8's look more like 9's and 10's just based on centering. If PSA could do grading all over, they would have put a heavier weight on centering. This would have limited the PWCC concept, because the collectors/investors put a heavy emphasis on centering.

PSA's stated criteria for a PSA 10 is that centering can be no worse than 55/45 to 60/40. I have personally never seen a card graded PSA 10 with "worse" centering than 60/40, and most are 55/45 or dead centered. In fact, I see plenty of cards graded PSA 9 that look 60/40 with no other issues. Do you think worse than 55/45 centering should automatically prevent a card from being a 10? Or should worse than 50/50 prevent it from being a 10? How do you think centering should be weighed more heavily?

I think for 1971 and back (just picking an older year, it could be another year like 1973 and back), these rules make perfect sense. But for the newer cards (pick one 1987 Greg Maddux, 1989 Griffey jr, etc), there are just to many cards printed and therefore maybe should have been more critically examined and possibly have different standards. I have seen a 1987 Topps jim Kelly that was graded a 10, that viewably looked like an 8. (I have seen many more like the Kelly).

But, the current PSA guidelines could/does leave an collector/investor with a perfect looking card or one that is a bit off some way. Look at a 1966 mantle psa 6. When you look through all of those you find horribly centered cards with nice corners. Then you will see a centered one with average corners. The Centered on will sell for $50 - $150 more. Thus, the buyer is really saying that this card should be a 6.5 or 7, or that the non-centered ones look more like 5's, take your pick.

lawyer05

i think this forum is too smart for those stickers, most of the people in this forum buy the card not the grade. The grade is a starting point for members of this forum and then they go from there examining every centimeter of that card. So really that stickers does nothing here. Outside this forum, that's a different story. But congrats to PWCC, id rather see Capitalism ideas then Socialistic ideas.

demondeacs

@lawyer05 said:
i think this forum is too smart for those stickers, most of the people in this forum buy the card not the grade. The grade is a starting point for members of this forum and then they go from there examining every centimeter of that card. So really that stickers does nothing here. Outside this forum, that's a different story. But congrats to PWCC, id rather see Capitalism ideas then Socialistic ideas.

One benefit, even for "pros" looking exclusively for higher-end cards, could be the time saved by searching for the different sticker designations.

They might not automatically accept the high-end labels as valid, but they can use them as a filter so they don't look through stuff that isn't close.

craig44

a post above touched on a subject that has been buried. what exactly are the criteria for determining whether or not a card is in the 5th percentile or 15th or 30th? there are no guidelines or rubric to determine this. it is really silly.

lawyer05

@craig44 said:
a post above touched on a subject that has been buried. what exactly are the criteria for determining whether or not a card is in the 5th percentile or 15th or 30th? there are no guidelines or rubric to determine this. it is really silly.

yes it is Vern....

lawyer05

beauty is in the eye of the be-(holder).... NO PUN INTENDED!!!

lawyer05

im leaving this forum , that's the the second time i agree with Craig44

1951WheatiesPremium

If you owned a business and had a GREAT reputation, putting your stamp of approval on a product is something that the seller AND the buyer of said product would appreciate. Buyer’s will pay a premium for what they know is a high quality product recommended from someone they trust. Sellers like anything that generates a higher price. And while people may worry that the ‘recommendation’ may be faulty, I don’t see people rushing in with examples of items that were questionable, either.

It all comes down to the invisible hand and it behooves PWCC to continue to protect and enhance its reputation as it is exactly that - the reputation- that is the brand. I think this is well understood and I doubt that it will be poorly conceived or executed.

Time will tell.