Should the rule for a starting pitcher getting credit for a win be changed?
SDSportsFan
Posts: 5,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
With today's preoccupation with pitch counts, and starting pitchers not going as deep into games as before, should the rules be changed? Wins have become tougher than ever for a starting pitcher to get.
There are just too many instances where a pitcher goes 5-6 innings, leaves with a lead, and then the bullpen melts down and blows it.
I propose the following:
If the starting pitcher pitches at least five innings, and his team wins the game, the starter should get credit for the win, even if he left the game with a lead that his team later relinquished.
I just really despise a reliever coming into a game with a lead, blowing the save, and then getting credit for a win because his team just happened to come back and save his butt! If a team comes back to win, the pitcher who started the game should get the win, not some flunky reliever who only pitched 1-2 innings!
Steve
Comments
Yes, absolutely, stop crediting pitchers with wins. It's stupid.
Agree with DA. One of 9 players for half a game.
You're saying MLB should stop awarding wins to pitchers, period?
So, as an example, a pitcher actually pitches a complete game shutout, double-digit strikeouts, no walks, maybe a no hitter or even a perfect game, and that pitcher doesn't get credited with the win?
I take it that you would also, to be fair, stop awarding saves to pitchers.
Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve
How long has the current rules for pitcher wins/losses been in effect? I don't think it's gone through many changes right?
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
But we've credited pitchers with wins/losses since the dawn of baseball...that'd be taking away one of the jewels of the pitching Triple Crown.
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
‘‘Hey it’s really hard to accomplish this so let’s just change the rules and make it easier to do.’
This is the solution to EVERYTHING today.
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That is correct. Wins are a team metric not an individual one. We have gone over and over this in the ST forum. As far as saves, there is no more valueless metric. Both are long outdated and valueless
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Agreed with doing away with saves completely . Its a team game , a save stat is stupid
holy crap I'm on the same page as craig. I'd also propose not allowing a reliever to leave until the end of the inning no matter how bad it gets
You give the example of a no hitter not being awarded with a win. How about the starter who gives up 7 runs in five innings because the manager leaves him in as the bullpen is tired but the offense scores 12 runs and he gets the "win" Wins are a team metric
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
keep everything the same
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
No hitters and perfect games should only be noted if completed with strike outs and put outs to the pitcher only.
Baseball got along fine without awarding "saves" for nearly a century, and they should stop doing so now. The save has no close competition for the most useless stat in baseball.
And your point about the pitcher throwing a no-hitter is valid, while craig's point about the 5-inning, 7-run start is equally valid. If the practice of awarding a "win" to one player in a team game must continue, how about awarding it to the player who contributed the most to the victory? In your example, that would be the pitcher, but in other games it would be the player who produced the most runs at the plate, or the fielder who saved a bases-loaded triple with a diving catch.
I have no idea why the practice of awarding "wins" to pitchers ever started. When it did start, most teams only had one pitcher who started every game so the pitcher's won-lost record was generally very close to his team's record, anyway. I have no illusions that this silly practice will ever end, but I am also under no obligation to pretend that it has any worthwhile meaning.
No longer awarding wins to pitchers is an intriguing concept that I hadn't considered. It is an idea that MLB probably should consider.
I've been a proponent of the "save" statistic for a long time, but with the way bullpens are now being (over)used, I agree that it should also be strongly looked at for deletion.
Steve
I would like to see pitchers wear a bazooka joe turtle neck and ski googles , without any names on the back. Make these lazy slugs only change at innings end and don't say who you substitute.
No stats except internally by the team for their own purposes.
I'd also advocate baseball cards be completely blank on both sides. Sports cards are the absolute lowest form of collecting and it should not be encouraged
I do not believe that a relief pitcher should get a win if they are not successful in holding the lead. If the team comes back, the win should be given to the last pitcher to hold the lead.
You guys are priceless! Leave things alone. You have to have wins and losses for pitchers! Good grief. Is this an April fools thread?!
A pitcher cannot win a game. A team wins a game. Even old Satch needed a catcher when he would sit down his fielders in exhibition games.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
The point is precisely that no, you don't HAVE to credit pitchers with wins and losses. We always have and we always will, but it's always been a stupid practice and it always will be. Your point - that we HAVE to be stupid - is the one I've been railing against since I first joined CU a long time ago. MLB will continue to be stupid by giving pitchers wins and losses; we can fight back by not caring who they give them to.
I just lost what little respect I had for your ideas on sports.
Now you went and made me cry.
When you've lost Dime..................
You know you're on the right track?
I know it will be hard for ya, but you will get over it.
A pitcher can certianly "win" a game by shutting out the other team, but it seems stupid if he gives up a bunch of runs and "wins" because his team scores even more.
Perhaps a pitcher should only get a win if he has a "quality start".
I don't really care either way. I just wish they would throw the #%$# ball! ;-)
Exactly when have the rules for what counts as a pitching win or a loss been set up? They haven't changed much over the years have the?
D's: 54S,53P,50P,49S,45D+S,44S,43D,41S,40D+S,39D+S,38D+S,37D+S,36S,35D+S,all 16-34's
Q's: 52S,47S,46S,40S,39S,38S,37D+S,36D+S,35D,34D,32D+S
74T: 37,38,47,151,193,241,435,570,610,654,655 97 Finest silver: 115,135,139,145,310
73T:31,55,61,62,63,64,65,66,67,68,80,152,165,189,213,235,237,257,341,344,377,379,390,422,433,453,480,497,545,554,563,580,606,613,630
95 Ultra GM Sets: Golden Prospects,HR Kings,On-Base Leaders,Power Plus,RBI Kings,Rising Stars
giving a win to a pitcher is stupid, guys who sit on the bench and then pinch-hit for a walk-off should be the only ones eligible.
Hockey: awards a win to the one winning player on the ice for the entire game
Football: doesn't award wins; no player is on the field for even half the game
Basketball: doesn't award wins; several players on the court for most of the game
Baseball: awards a win to a player who appears in at most slightly more than half the game or as little as 1/54th of the game. It is possible for the player who allows the most runs to score to be awarded the win. It is common for the player who allows the most runs per inning to score to be awarded the win.
Football and basketball got it right; hockey's policy is defensible; baseball's policy is a joke.
I think that's the biggest problem; The starting pitcher can pitch 8 innings, give up no runs, leave with say, a 2-0 lead, and end up with a no-decision, while a "reliever" comes in in the ninth, gives up 2 runs to tie the game, and then the reliever gets the win when their team scores in the bottom of the ninth!
It's a complete crock of crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Steve
Jim Bouton used to rate his appearances as very good, good, average, bad, very bad. He was only grading his pitching, not if the team won or lost.
Seems to be a more logical way to do things.
pitcher wins are really indefensible
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Last night was a perfect illustration of the futility of Wins as an individual metric
Chris Sale: 8IP, 3H, 14K, 1ER
Clayton Kershaw: 6.2 IP, 9 H, 4K, 4 ER
Who pitched better? Kershaw got the ¨win¨ Sale a no decision.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
These have to be the dumbest statements EVER posted here!
I dare you to explain why without saying something far dumber. I double dare you.
In a nutshell - Baseball is the only sport of the major 4 sports where one player (pitcher) who has the job of n0t allowing runners to get on base and scoring. I know he depends on defense. That's why there are earned runs and unearned runs. This is what gauges a pitcher just like batting averages and the like gauge the other players.
a pitchers only function is to bore to tears by endlessly delaying the game
Bronc you are a hoot!
LOL. Yes, baseball is the only sport where one player is responsible for not allowing runners to get on base, because it's the only sport with bases. Seriously, read what you posted and try not to laugh. Every sport has one player who is the only one responsible for ________________________. Filling in the blank with a baseball-specific task and saying that proves baseball is unique defiles logic and insults our intelligence.
Also, the way you phrased your statement only makes sense if there is only one pitcher per side, otherwise it is obviously not the case that there is "only one player" responsible for not allowing runs to score. So you completely sidestepped the question of why a pitcher who comes in in the 9th inning and allows two runs can get credited with a win. If they only awarded wins to pitchers who pitched complete games, this thread wouldn't exist, so your response again insults our intelligence.
And, whether the runs are earned or unearned is unrelated to who gets credit for the win or the loss, so that part of your explanation has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
And yes, allowing earned runs is what we use to gauge a pitcher, as we use other stats to gauge hitters. But we're not talking about earned run averages, we're talking about wins, so the rest of your explanation has nothing to do with the topic at hand, either.
I won't say your post is the dumbest statement EVER, because 1970s is on this forum, but it's pretty pathetic.
A goalie's sole responsibility is keeping the puck out of the net.
and.... Dallas for the win.
It astounds me that anyone could seriously justify pitcher wins as a metric. just as bad as saves.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
a soccer goalie is soley responsible for keeping the ball out of the net
field goals and extra points are the responsibility of one player
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
no other sport has 1 slug that can completely monopolize the flow of the game. The baseball pitcher is the ultimate narcissist the whole show revolves around that one turd in the punchbowl. Goalies in other sports just have to perform when the thing flies at the net. The rest of the time they snooze
another meaningful post by bronco
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Can't say on soccer, watching for more than 1 minute makes me want to dunk my head in a vat of molten asphalt, or I just fall asleep or change the channel. Worse than watching golf or Nascar.
Field goals and extra points don't apply here.
By the way some pitcher just threw a shutout and hit a home run, winning the game 1-0.
HE could deserve the win!
Think he got a stolen base too, a combo that hadn't been done for 100+(?) years or something like that.
Yes, and they get a save for that don't they?
Dallas you are the stupid one here. You know exactly what I meant!
Guess I was thinking of a different one w/Sandoval (shutout inning, home run, and stolen base): http://tv5.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/26686276/sandoval-homers-steals-throws-blank-inning?platform=amp
You were probably referring to the Snydergaard (CG shutout and home run): https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/mets/noah-syndergaard-shutout-home-run-mets-reds-1.30555900
Interestingly, both against the Reds.
90% of baseball is starting at some clown tug on his ballsack , spit , pick his nose, shake off signs from the catcher blah blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz throw the friggin ball i cant take it anymore.
Has anyone ever taken a stop watch to a baseball game and timed the real action , like fielding baserunning etc ? I know they have done it for football .
Say what you want about soccer or hockey every second of gametime is someone moving the puck or ball around.
Baseball is a coma patient who blinks an eye once a day