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Gold as money in Venezuela during hyperinflation

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  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davidk said:

    @jmski52 said:
    I did contend that you were afraid to know the truth as evidenced by your lack of effort to prove otherwise.
    So use some logic. Gold is discounted right here in the USA when one needs to sell, so you really think it wouldnt be discounted when you need to eat?

    What is it that you want me to prove? That gold isn't discounted during hyperinflation in Venezuela, or that dollars are discounted less than gold is discounted? Is that your "truth" that I'm supposed to be afraid of? What's your point?

    Is your contention is that people in Venezuela were better off having dollars than gold? If that's your contention, I don't think you've proven your point. I've listed different viable circumstances that serve as exceptions to that contention and none of the articles you've cited say anything to the contrary.

    I don't understand why you think you know what's going on in Venezuela other than the sad situation that people in need will accept gouging when they have few options.

    Spot on.

    You may notice that I’ve stopped feeding the troll (not you). I’ve no time for circular arguments, and input that adds nothing to the discussion at hand.

    I really like well thought out dissenting opinions, even more so than opinions that I already agree with...but some seem to play the part of contrarian in an unhelpful and unpleasant way. No thanks.

    Dont be afraid. Gold will save you. I presented a simply question. Dpoile gets it. Many others dont, wont, cant. Stack on!!!🐑

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    we buy gold rates mean gold is not a good store of value

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 5,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2019 3:16AM

    We were watching the coverage on one of the spanish channels yesterday after the champions league game, crazy stuff going on. My buddy from Romania, who lived through communism/socialism, bread lines, toilet paper lines (he's not 40 yet), all that good stuff that comes with it, we had an interesting conversation about all of that nonsense and why folks here in the states supporting that kind of ideology are clueless.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My buddy from Romania, who lived through communism/socialism, bread lines, toilet paper lines (he's not 40 yet), all that good stuff that comes with it, we had an interesting conversation about all of that nonsense and why folks here in the states supporting that kind of ideology are clueless.

    Bingo!

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 5,409 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    My buddy from Romania, who lived through communism/socialism, bread lines, toilet paper lines (he's not 40 yet), all that good stuff that comes with it, we had an interesting conversation about all of that nonsense and why folks here in the states supporting that kind of ideology are clueless.

    Bingo!

    They don't even teach about it in the schools anymore. Erase history and repeat it via top-down directive is in play in US public schools. DoE is the worst thing to happen to kids here. My teacher wife loathes it.

  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭✭✭

    From NY Times:

    How bad is the country’s humanitarian crisis?

    Consumer prices have skyrocketed, and the International Monetary Fund expects the inflation rate to reach 10 million percent in 2019, which would be one of the worst cases of hyperinflation in modern history.

    Violence and hunger are widespread. Food shortages have reached new highs in recent months, and 80 percent of Venezuelan households don’t have sufficient access to food, according to monitoring groups. Grocery store shelves are bare. Hospitals struggle to treat severely malnourished children.

    The country’s public health system has collapsed, leaving many without access to lifesaving medicine. The rates of several preventable diseases have risen.

    The migration of Venezuelans out of the country has reached levels not seen before in modern history. More than three million people have left since 2014, according to the United Nations migration agency, setting off a regional crisis that has left neighboring countries grappling with how to respond.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • MilesWaitsMilesWaits Posts: 5,372 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would like to see the thread remain because I believe it is helpful and educational..
    Please avoid politicizing this thread. There is no shortage of forums elsewhere for that desire.

    Now riding the swell in PM's and surf.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,238 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm guessing their currency is now worthless. People that had their savings in this currency lost all their savings. And, yes, it could happen in this country.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • davidkdavidk Posts: 275 ✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:
    I'm guessing their currency is now worthless. People that had their savings in this currency lost all their savings. And, yes, it could happen in this country.

    This I know...the Bolivar is worth much more on eBay than it is in Venezuela. I’ve been adding the beautiful notes to my failed currency collection.

  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2019 1:00PM

    Looks bad. It doesn't look like the army is abandoning Madero in sufficient numbers.

    Cuba's bought into Madero because he's the only (albeit tenuous) source of oil for them. But all Cuba has to offer is doctors and spies. Russia seems to be enjoying causing trouble for the U.S. again, but I can't see that they have much to gain otherwise pouring any resources into Madero's debacle.

    We're likely looking at vengeful recrimination and more systemic repression of the opposition there, and further economic free-fall. It sounds as though people have run though all their resources (gold, dollars, etc.), and are facing increasingly desperate deprivation.

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is the official and black market exchange rates. The common man cannot get dollars at the official rate.

    Last year the government wiped 5 zeros off the current and now the new name is bolivar sobrenado or something like that.

    Also late last year forecasts for inflation were in the 1-2 million percent. Now I see 10 million? I'll take hindsight over predictions.

    Some are using Bitcoin as a store of wealth even. Their stock market is also going crazy as people park money there. Unfortunately, the only stories about gold are those selling even sentimental items for money to buy basics.

    Doctors and nurses are leaving the country. Professionals can find work elsewhere. Those that stay have shortages of basic things like anesthesia.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    why folks here in the states supporting that kind of ideology are clueless

    Folks are supporting a militaristic dictatorship?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • DrBusterDrBuster Posts: 5,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2019 1:42PM

    @cohodk said:
    why folks here in the states supporting that kind of ideology are clueless

    Folks are supporting a militaristic dictatorship?

    The post was about socialism/communism and what the results of that are, and the discussion spurred from the news. If you would like me to expand, the Romanian situation resulted in a revolution such as this event yesterday , to get out from the end result of sed ideology, which my buddy witnessed firsthand.

    The quoted comment was related to the social/comm ideology rise here in the states.

  • davidkdavidk Posts: 275 ✭✭✭

    I say duke it out, but keep it civil. Win, win.

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DrBuster said:

    @cohodk said:
    why folks here in the states supporting that kind of ideology are clueless

    Folks are supporting a militaristic dictatorship?

    The post was about socialism/communism and what the results of that are, and the discussion spurred from the news. If you would like me to expand, the Romanian situation resulted in a revolution such as this event yesterday , to get out from the end result of sed ideology, which my buddy witnessed firsthand.

    The quoted comment was related to the social/comm ideology rise here in the states.

    I know what you meant. And I understand the Romanian and Polish and other Eastern Bloc countries, as well as Venezuela, Argentina, Zimbabwe and others, were countries whose hyoerinflation was the result of having the (corrupt) military in power. Those militaries usually gained power as a result of war, oftentimes civil war.

    Some folks you see on TV are certainly misguided, but unless the USA is to be governed by a corrupt dictator with military backing, a similar result is highly unlikely here. The importance of the 2nd amendment is quite evident here.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,240 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is an article from early December

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/cost-of-coffee-in-venezuela-doubles-in-seven-days-32vpmgpp0

    It has stated an annualized inflation rate of almost 2 million percent using the cafe con leche measure.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 33,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,940 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2019 6:39PM

    The lesson of Venezuela's plight, perhaps, is that it matters less what goes on, than what people BELIEVE goes on.

    In the face of this economic/social melt-down of this erstwhile wealthy country, a substantial portion of the people nonetheless (and even now) believe that the melt-down has been altogether caused by evil outsiders.

    It makes you appreciate both the importance and frailty of our belief in our own institutions (including our monetary system).

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:
    And I understand the Romanian and Polish and other Eastern Bloc countries, as well as Venezuela, Argentina, Zimbabwe and others, were countries whose hyoerinflation was the result of having the (corrupt) military in power. Those militaries usually gained power as a result of war, oftentimes civil war.

    Some folks you see on TV are certainly misguided, but unless the USA is to be governed by a corrupt dictator with military backing, a similar result is highly unlikely here. The importance of the 2nd amendment is quite evident here.

    Hyperinflation is caused by reckless monetary management/printing. It has nothing to do with the political/military affiliation of whomever is in power. It has everything to do with corruption and reckless spending. It will not take a corrupt dictator with military backing to see a similar result here. Least we forget those behind our current monetary mismanagement/spending are in fact backed by a military.

    But wait, it could never happen here. LOL.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:
    And I understand the Romanian and Polish and other Eastern Bloc countries, as well as Venezuela, Argentina, Zimbabwe and others, were countries whose hyoerinflation was the result of having the (corrupt) military in power. Those militaries usually gained power as a result of war, oftentimes civil war.

    Some folks you see on TV are certainly misguided, but unless the USA is to be governed by a corrupt dictator with military backing, a similar result is highly unlikely here. The importance of the 2nd amendment is quite evident here.

    Hyperinflation is caused by reckless monetary management/printing. It has nothing to do with the political/military affiliation of whomever is in power. It has everything to do with corruption and reckless spending. It will not take a corrupt dictator with military backing to see a similar result here. Least we forget those behind our current monetary mismanagement/spending are in fact backed by a military.

    But wait, it could never happen here. LOL.

    Hyperinflation is created by severe supply/demand disruptions which are usually the result of war, not from money printing-which is an effect of hyperinflation, not a cause.

    The result of these wars is usually a rise to power of the military. One does not need to fear AOC.

    Yes, it did happen here, in 1864. And would occur again in a similar situation. That gonna happen in your lifetime? Your kids'...grandkids'?

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    civil war is more often a result of hyperinflation, not a cause.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019 3:30AM

    @derryb said:
    civil war is more often a result of hyperinflation, not a cause.

    It is the disruption of the supply/demand equation that causes hyperinflation. Wars typically cause this disruption. Cases in point are Weimar, Argentina, Zimbabwe, Greece.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wars do not cause hyperinflation, money printing does, even when it is done to pay for war. War can create supply shortages that can create a rise in prices, but runaway inflation (hyperinflation) is a reckless money supply issue. If war were the cause of inflation the fed would be promoting gun control.

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019 7:41AM

    @derryb said:
    Wars do not cause hyperinflation, money printing does, even when it is done to pay for war. War can create supply shortages that can create a rise in prices, but runaway inflation (hyperinflation) is a reckless money supply issue.

    War creates the disruptions. Markets demand higher prices for those goods and services. As those prices rise,govts pront larger and larger and bills to meet the demand. The money printing is in response to higher prices. It does not cause the higher prices.

    Prices can start to rise because of a loss of confidence in a currency which can be from many reasons, but the hyper part of inflation is money printing as a RESULT of demand for more money.

    Global increase in money supply over the last 10 years have proven that printing money does not cause hyperinflation.

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,945 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:
    Wars do not cause hyperinflation, money printing does, even when it is done to pay for war. War can create supply shortages that can create a rise in prices, but runaway inflation (hyperinflation) is a reckless money supply issue.

    War creates the disruptions. Markets demand higher prices for those goods and services. As those prices rise,govts pront larger and larger and bills to meet the demand. The money printing is in response to higher prices. It does not cause the higher prices.

    Prices can start to rise because of a loss of confidence in a currency which can be from many reasons, but the hyper part of inflation is money printing as a RESULT of demand for more money.

    Global increase in money supply over the last 10 years have proven that printing money does not cause hyperinflation.

    It's not the actual printing that causes the problem, it's the introduction of the newly printed money into the marketplace, something that failed to materialize with QE1-4. Which war was it that resulted in the Zimbabwe $1 hundred trillion dollar notes?

    The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong

  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 19,187 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @cohodk said:

    @derryb said:

    Which war was it that resulted in the Zimbabwe $1 hundred trillion dollar notes?

    Maybe you dont recognize a govt that took away farmers land, bulldozed thousands of businesses and homes, and massacred 10s of thousands of its own citizens as a civil war. Usually disrupting the ability to produce food and citizens to operate a business, force millions to flee the country, destroy the education system and prevent access to healthcare will lead to hyperinflation. I think id call that a war on your own people. Buts only if you dont want to consider Zimbabwes role in wars in the Congo.

    It's not the actual printing that causes the problem,

    You get an A. :)

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The actual printing obligates taxpayers at some future time, and releases the mismanaged banking system from any responsibility. So there's that in terms of moral hazard. The corruption thingy.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    It's not the actual printing that causes the problem, it's the introduction of the newly printed money into the marketplace, something that failed to materialize with QE1-4.

    Lol just saw this, is this for real? Lol, what a statement, do people even read?, lol amazing...

    keceph `anah
  • rawteam1rawteam1 Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    Gold is money... always will be...

    Why people quoting AOC now all the time?...

    keceph `anah
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,899 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gold is money... always will be...
    Why people quoting AOC now all the time?...

    say what?

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cohodk said:
    Look at these poor Venzuelans...they are trading their gold for something even more valuable...food. And a hungry person will take whatever he can get.

    When the people voted for a government that says they're going to do this during their elections, I don't feel bad. You might call me cold hearted but when you support the current government, you have to deal with the consequences. Communism ("socialism") has always turned into a dictatorship. Remember when this happened? How convenient....

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-18288430

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