Are your 1880-S & 1881-S Eagles too large?
RogerB
Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
The following letter offers some interesting insights on San Francisco Eagles being too large in diameter. Also, note Snowden's comment about use of collar reeding for other denominations on Eagles. [This suggests (and requires further investigation) that collars sent to other mints were NOT completed steel rings ready for use, but could have been flat strips or curved segments from which each mint was expected to copy the correct reed style and count. If correct, this meshes well with comments in From Mine to Mint about the use of knurling tools to cut collars.]
"Mint of the United States at Philadelphia, Pa
Superintendent’s Office
February 14, 1881
Hon. Horatio C. Burchard
Director of the Mint
Washington, D.C.
Sir:
In reply to your letter of the 14th inst., in relation to the Eagle dies from the San Francisco Mint which were found to be larger than our standard, and in response to your further request, I herewith submit a schedule giving the diameters of the different coins issued.
The collar of the Eagle in San Francisco must be larger than it should be. There is no doubt about this fact, as it was carefully measured and compared with our standard collars.
I may say in this connection that some years since I furnished from this Mint, collars for different denominations, all prepared from our standard. They should be observed strictly in the different mints.
In this connection also, I beg to inform you that among the reserve coins from San Francisco, I noticed a few Eagles containing the reeding of the three dollar, quarter Eagle, Gold dollar, and Dime collar whereas to be uniform with that Standard prescribed here it should have been the same as the Double Eagle and Eagle. I do not suppose it is a matter of importance, but I think that in all respects the coins of the different Mints should be uniform.
Very respectfully,
Our obedient servant
A. Loudoun Snowden, Superintendent"
[RG104 E-229 Box 5 of 17]
Comments
Wow. Four days and no one has measured their S mint eagles.
This is really a little piece of information for use by careful authenticators.
LOL, Perhaps all the high grade examples that are suitable for measurement are already in slabs.
Interesting
Collector, occasional seller
Roger, it is only the lack of the coins that prevented me from measuring them promptly!
Smitten with DBLCs.
Very interesting... so there should be some 'oversize' Eagles out there....I do not think I have any.... Cheers, RickO
I'm tempted to open the sealed mint bags I use as doorstops to see if they are too large.
Given that pcgs slabs have a set width, it should be possible to get the width indirectly. I will try this weekend and post results.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Oversize= over wieght?
No, the planchet is a fixed size before entering the press.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
The letter evidently applies at minimum to 1880-S and 1881-S Eagles.
Also note this in the letter: "...among the reserve coins from San Francisco, I noticed a few Eagles containing the reeding of the three dollar, quarter Eagle, Gold dollar, and Dime collar whereas to be uniform with that Standard prescribed here it should have been the same as the Double Eagle and Eagle."
There might be Eagles with edge reeding noticeably different from standard. Examination of the edge of Eagles for small-gold or dime reeding (shape and reeds/mm), might result is a nice discovery.
Interesting project. I don't see how gold dollars (mentioned in the letter) with reed counts below 100 can be the same in any respect to the $20's or $10's with reed counts over 120. No hanky-panky went on at NO where the reed count from 1879 to 1882 for the $10 was the same. That lends proof to your contention that NO made their own collars.
@RogerB "There might be Eagles with edge reeding noticeably different from standard." - is there a "reed variety" documented anywhere in US coins? I know there are edge lettering varieties but I don't recall ever seeing a variety with reeds from a different denomination.
The major limitation to the number of edge reeds on a coin is its circumference. As I recall, there is some overlap at the high/low counts between several denominations.
Fantasy Example: Smaller coin from various mints with date range from 1820 to 1890 and reed count of 110 to 135.
Larger coin from various mints with date range from 1830 to 1903 and a reed count of 133 to 160. Thus a few dates/mints will have the same reed count (135) for different denominations.
There are two reed counts for 1921 Morgan dollars, and there are multiple discrepancies between mints and years in the Morgan series. You'll have to ask a seated Liberty coin specialist about those coins. I recall half eagles with incorrect reeding and there are evidently a bunch of San Francisco quarter eagles with dime diameters and reeds -- but I;ve forgotten the dates.
I have a roll of '81-S dollars but they all are normal sized