Grading Full Step Jefferson Nickels - Then and Now
Ronyahski
Posts: 3,117 ✭✭✭✭✭
MWallace posted elsewhere about the old PAK Full Step Nickel Club of the 1970's - 80's, which prompted me to pull out some old material from my files.
PAK was formed on April 1, 1977 by Philip Petrillo, Adolf Weiss, and Karl Nenninger. It was the first club devoted to the collection of full step nickels. The club had about 100 members within the first two years of existence. Adolf Weiss was the main contributor to the club, whom I met in 1977 at a coin show in the Polish Community Center of Albany, N.Y and became one of its first members. Only a couple of dealers that I can recall dealt with FS Nickels, Greg Rohan of Heritage being one of them.
PAK published its Jefferson Nickel Full Step Grading Guide in 1979 which defined the grading of full steps in the market place. (The "1983" on the cover was a forward looking price guide.)
Bernard Nagengast was an early member of PAK and in 1979 he published his The Jefferson Nickel Analyst, which was a simplified version taken from the PAK guidelines. Current grading standards have drifted and are now somewhat different.
Here is a very good example of how grading standards have wandered off the path. This is a picture from the PAK Full Step Grading Guide published in 1979. Coins were graded based on Grade, Strike, and Steps. Grades were 60,65, 70 (similar to proposed ANA grading standards during the time); Strike was designated as Weak, Medium, Full; and Steps were counted down to the 1/4 step. The step count would years later move to a 1/2 step count.
The picture shows a coin with 5 Full Steps, and as required in the grading standards, any nicks or abrasions needed to be called out. The coin is still 5 Full Steps, as full steps are a consequence of strike and die wear. Contact marks and abrasions do not change that fact, unless they so obscure the strike details that one can't be certain.
Years ago PCGS started out grading under similar standards. They have wandered around in their grading and currently seem to be at the point where any mark or abrasion on the steps, no matter how small, will render it Non FS. PCGS would not now give the coin depicted in the PAK grading guide a FS designation.
Comments
I like how Bernard A. Nagengast presents himself as "Member ANA, PAK".
I didn't know about PAK until today but it's great to learn about this part of collecting history.
The 2002 second edition, "The Jefferson Nickel Analyst - 2nd Edition", is available on Amazon and has 5 5-star reviews.
https://www.amazon.com/Jefferson-Nickel-Analyst-2nd/dp/0971989907
A more recent guide is the 2015 "Full Step Jefferson Nickels: A Re-Evaluation" by Gary S. Dykes, ANA #3179303, WBCC #578.
http://www.biblical-data.org/The_steps_review.pdf
Here are some images for the serious full steps collector from the publication:
Diagrams and pictures.
Full Step Jefferson Nickels.
Stylobate.
Six (6) steps.
Placeholder post so I can find this thread in the future.
Stylobate - I learned a new word for the day!
"Stylobate" Extinct relative of the stegosaurus and trilobite.
Also, slang for a "stylish rebate" given when you buy a new Bentley.
I would argue that the bottom picture from the OP which shows "5 full lines" isn't a five step coin and shouldn't be referred to as such. it has four struck steps and the fifth step isn't struck.
if you don't count the "stylobate" there wouldn't be any six step verified Nickels in existence.
here is an explanation.
--- In classical Greek architecture, a stylobate (Greek: στυλοβάτης) is the top step of the crepidoma, the stepped platform upon which colonnades of temple columns are placed (it is the floor of the temple). The platform was built on a leveling course that flattened out the ground immediately beneath the temple.
let's re-invent the mousetrap.
I've visited this thread several times today, trying to understand Mr. Dykes view on step counting. (See Zoins link above) I just haven't seen this phantom sixth step below the stylobate that he describes. I went to the safe and pulled a few full step coins as well as a few proofs to review. After viewing mine, it reinforced my belief that the TPG's have it right. Five incuse lines plus the stylobate make the six step coin. Mr. Dykes is trying to match the actual Monticello in Virginia's profile with the Schlag design. While Schlag's intention may have been to accurately depict Monticello's steps (six plus the stylobate), the finished design shows five plus the stylobate. Admittedly, I haven't studied post 70's steps so I'll defer to others on those.
In summary, I'm still in the camp where five complete incuse lines plus the given top step gives one a six step Jefferson. Change my mind if you believe differently.
Me too. Tomorrow I can start calling dealers for "full stylobate" Jeffersons.
Now this is a very interesting coin thread/topic, much more interesting than, "Will this coin CAC?" or What do you think of the toning on this coin? ". imho
@Ronyahski and @MWallace Thanks for posting this and the other thread on PAK.
I love the history and discussion in these two threads.
Prior thread:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1018384/does-anyone-remember-pak-the-full-step-nickel-club
Well now... we are certainly getting down to the details... does anyone have the original die pictures to see if there were six steps plus the stylobate?? Did the full detail actually exist on the die? It would seem we should study the die to see what was even possible.....Cheers, RickO
You got it right. This is the first time I have seen the information produced by Dykes. Maybe it is technically a stylobate, but it has always been called a step by coin collectors.
I'm not sure anybody knows from what Schlag's Monticello design was drawn. I believe he never actually visited Jefferson's home; he lived in Chicago. Recall that his original reverse design was not used and he was asked by Director Ross to change the view of Monticello, at the request of the President.
Schlag wrote back that "I have sent for more material on the subject and as soon as it is received, I will make drawings and models and submit them for approval." Once Schlag submitted his changes, Engraver John SInnock made all of the alterations to the design, and Schlag never saw them. (See RogerB's book on 1936-1942 Proof Coins for more info.) We do know, however, that Schlag did not use the modern photo that Dykes dissected and concluded that there is a mysterious missing step.
The first year issue coins of 1938 had wavy steps and that design was soon changed. The Reverse of 38 Steps, as shown on 1938 Proof coins, had additional detail between the outside two plinths, similar to Dyke's picture of a 1998 coin. But the steps were so wavy that you could count anywhere between 5 and 8 steps, depending on the area you decided to walk up.
It wasn't until the 1920's-30's that Monticello was substantially restored. The outside perimeter of the house and the gardens were the subjects of restoration starting around 1938-39, when Schlag designed the nickel.
So how many portico steps were there in 1938? Here is a rendering of Monticello in its early years, date unknown.
Note that there is one less step from the present day, and no extension of the stylobate on the sides of the steps.
Here is another picture, date unknown, with only one sidewall to the steps.
The definition of a 5-step or 6-step coin was first devised in the 1970's and is primarily attributed to PAK. Perhaps they didn't know what a stylobate was, or perhaps they didn't care.
it is interesting that all the pictures shown depicting the steps and even the view and steps themselves which are on the coin are of the back of Monticello and not the front. why is that?? why would such a famous structure be depicted on a coin and not have the front of the building shown?? is it because, based on what Ronyahski posted above, that Felix Schlag never actually went to the estate and thought he was looking at the front of the building??
the view on the Jefferson Nickel is of the back of the building but the steps are the front steps, six in number, whereas the back steps number seven. since I visited the landmark around 2003 I have wondered about it. below is my thread from that visit. I took some pictures but the links are long since gone.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/527642/pictures-of-my-trip-to-monticello-and-perhaps-something-unknown-to-most-me-included-before-the-trip/p1
Agree, it is 4 1/2 steps with hits. Even if all the steps were full it would not qualify due to the hits.
This is a bad image that does not show the steps accurately. I believe it is like this just to convey the "idea" of steps for the cover.
I think the reason the "stylobate" is included in the step count may be because it takes 7 actual steps to reach the top of the 6 steps.
Loving all the Recent Jefferson conversations
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I'll add one more tidbit of information to the Jefferson conversation. I was visiting with Larry Briggs at a local show several years ago and asked him about the SEGS graded FSNC silver nickels and how all of that transpired. He said that a Californian named Crane headed up the FSNC and asked SEGS to encapsulate them for the club. Larry indicated that he was shipping the two coin numbered pairs out for Crane until at some point he wasn't being paid for the shipments. At that point he quit shipping for the FSNC and the project fell in to disarray. This was about the time that the FSNC went down as well. (2002/3?) I inquired as to what became of the rest of the nickels and he claimed he still had a fair amount in the SEGS safe. Hearing this, I asked what he would want for the rest of them, but repeated requests to hang a number on the remaining have gone unanswered.
Oh, and has anyone seen one of these floating around?..................................
There is a certain BigDawg that would love to talk with you.