GTG - Guess the Grade of this stunning 1876 piece.

SSRSSR Posts: 115 ✭✭✭
edited April 16, 2019 4:35PM in U.S. Coin Forum

1876 1C NGC. I will provide two more pieces of information aside from the fact that its cac/straight graded.

1) The marks on the reverse are die polish
2) The photo is not edited in anyway







Big version of the pics - https://imgur.com/a/QSv0n8n

The coin has sold, and is not available for sale. This is just for GTG. Answer will be revealed tomorrow night.

ParadimeCoins
www.paradimecoins.com
«1

Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019 4:29PM

    My personal 64+ (spots) but I'll guess that NGC graded it MS-65 Star.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’ll guess MS66RB.

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 1,627 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65

  • ilmcoinsilmcoins Posts: 152 ✭✭✭

    65

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 5,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Show it without so much light! The color is so washed out it doesn't even look like copper!

  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 4,682 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65BN

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 774 ✭✭✭✭

    AU 58

  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 6,470 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mongo like pretty coin

    Never take a front row seat at a Bris.
    Proud recipient and founding member of the "YOU SUCK" Club since 8/31/04 - USAF Retired: 1974 - 1994

  • privatecoinprivatecoin Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭

    65bn

    Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire

  • SSRSSR Posts: 115 ✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin brought up a good point! my pic shows the color a little washed. The second obverse holder pic is very accurate to how it looks in hand and there is ample luster. Check out the imgur link it shows the coin clearer without it being washed or pixelated.

    https://imgur.com/a/QSv0n8n

    Have fun. Cheers!

    ParadimeCoins
    www.paradimecoins.com
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019 5:18PM

    I'll make a suggestion. We can all learn more if we critique each others GTG opinions as they are made. B)

    For example: someone could reasonably critique my opinion as "Way too low dude. Loosen up! The color and originality w/o any friction alone is worth a point to MS-66."

    So...

    IMO the coin is NOT BROWN by any stretch. It is either graded Red or RB.

    @amwldcoin said: "Show it without so much light! The color is so washed out it doesn't even look like copper!

    Since there is no "disagree" button any more... I am under the impression that the poster is decidedly wrong about the lighting. o:)

    @Soldi I see absolutely no amount of friction that would lower the grade to AU. Where do you see it - the cheek?

  • DollarAfterDollarDollarAfterDollar Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭

    MS 65 + RB. Nice coin with great "pop".

    If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    I'll make a suggestion. We can all learn more if we critique each others GTG opinions as they are made. B)

    For example: someone could reasonably critique my opinion as "Way too low dude. Loosen up! The color and originality w/o any friction alone is worth a point to MS-66."

    So...

    IMO the coin is NOT BROWN by any stretch. It is either graded Red or RB.

    @amwldcoin said: "Show it without so much light! The color is so washed out it doesn't even look like copper!

    Since there is no "disagree" button any more... I am under the impression that the poster is decidedly wrong about the lighting. o:)

    In the spirit of your suggestion, I don’t think the “spots” you mentioned are nearly significant enough to downgrade the coin below MS66. I would grade the coin 66+ before I’d grade it your “personal” 64+. It looks outstanding to me.

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019 5:48PM

    @MFeld said:

    @Insider2 said:
    I'll make a suggestion. We can all learn more if we critique each others GTG opinions as they are made. B)

    For example: someone could reasonably critique my opinion as "Way too low dude. Loosen up! The color and originality w/o any friction alone is worth a point to MS-66."

    So...

    IMO the coin is NOT BROWN by any stretch. It is either graded Red or RB.

    @amwldcoin said: "Show it without so much light! The color is so washed out it doesn't even look like copper!

    Since there is no "disagree" button any more... I am under the impression that the poster is decidedly wrong about the lighting. o:)

    In the spirit of your suggestion, I don’t think the “spots” you mentioned are nearly significant enough to downgrade the coin below MS66. I would grade the coin 66+ before I’d grade it your “personal” 64+. It looks outstanding to me.

    I appreciate your reply! Let's get more to join in and please remember, there are other folks here (besides me) with opinions other members may disagree with.

    The eye appeal of the coin is very nice. That's why your guess will probably nail the grade of either 66 or 66+. While the spots look like an attack of the measles to me, they are very light, Unfortunately, I still cannot grade a copper coin over 64 w/carbon spots.

    I just finished crossing a box of 100+ ATS tokens today so I might be influenced. I only disagreed with 2 attributions and there were over 25 beautiful RB copper coins that were only graded 63 due to spots that were just a little worse than we see here. I upgraded very many to 64. Since this Indian is in an NGC slab, I'm thinking they were conservative and did not grade it 66 which probably reflects its commercial value. One thing for sure, my personal grade means nothing and you will not see a coin as this graded MS-64 by anyone except an old dinosaur.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65 RB.
    I’m only seeing it on my iPhone, but I see a few small tics and spots, the older holder and the sticker, assume it was conservatively graded/high end, so I kept my guess at 65.

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  • ElmerFusterpuckElmerFusterpuck Posts: 3,053 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seen this one on Instagram I believe, but not remembering the grade for sure. I'm thinking 66 BN.

  • SmudgeSmudge Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭✭✭

    66 rb.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 774 ✭✭✭✭

    The shield, the cheek, the wreath, the ribbon, the spots and the totally in-natural color. AU58.

  • BGERRISHBGERRISH Posts: 56 ✭✭

    I would call it a 64

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 4,447 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:
    The shield, the cheek, the wreath, the ribbon, the spots and the totally in-natural color. AU58.

    ummmmmm..

    Unnatural?

    What is in-natural?

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • RealoneRealone Posts: 17,832 ✭✭✭✭

    Love the piece.

    'Never give in, never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy'.
    FYI: I only collect naturally toned coins with original surfaces and nothing else, trust me nothing else!
    OK with one exception!
  • seanqseanq Posts: 7,605 ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with much of what has been said above. It's got 66 level eye appeal and 64 level spots, so I would "split the baby" and call this a 65.

    Sean Reynolds

    Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.

    "Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
  • AercusAercus Posts: 47 ✭✭

    I like it as a 66BN. Not enough red left on my screen, especially on the reverse. I don't think the small spotting detracts.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @seanq said:
    I agree with much of what has been said above. It's got 66 level eye appeal and 64 level spots, so I would "split the baby" and call this a 65.

    Sean Reynolds

    Regardless of what the assigned grade turns out to be, I have seen many, many copper coins graded 66 with more noticeable/conspicuous spotting than seen on this coin. And yes, I believe the spots were present at the time the coins were graded. I dislike spots, but the major grading companies are apparently more lenient on them than are a number of the posters to this thread.

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 13,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    65 BN here. Nice coin!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019 8:46AM

    I should not need to write this but their may be "snowflakes" reading this post.

    I AM NOT A KNOW IT ALL.
    ANYTHING I POST IS USUALLY JUST AN OPINION.
    ANYTHING I POST IS AN EFFORT BY ME TO EDUCATE OR TO BE EDUCATED BY OTHERS. o:)

    @MFeld said:

    @seanq said:
    I agree with much of what has been said above. It's got 66 level eye appeal and 64 level spots, so I would "split the baby" and call this a 65.

    Sean Reynolds

    Regardless of what the assigned grade turns out to be, I have seen many, many copper coins graded 66 with more noticeable/conspicuous spotting than seen on this coin. And yes, I believe the spots were present at the time the coins were graded. I dislike spots, but the major grading companies are apparently more lenient on them than are a number of the posters to this thread.

    Just because the major TPGS have watered down the grading standards with regard to:

    Amount of Friction
    Strength of Strike
    Number and Severity of Spots/Scratches.
    and Originality.

    ...does not make it "right." Nevertheless, we all need to know the evolving new standards. Thankfully, we each have to make a personal decision on what we like before we buy a coin. Fortunately, the major TPGS have gone a long way to take the guesswork and the pitfalls out of our purchases.

    Furthermore Mark, due to your position, you probably see a lot more graded coins from the TPGS's in two auctions than most of us will see in ten years! Therefore, your opinion carries a lot of weight so I expect your guess to be more correct than mine in any GTG contest.

    @Soldi said: "The shield, the cheek, the wreath, the ribbon, the spots and the totally in-natural color. AU58."

    Breaks in the original surface of any coin reflect light differently and cause what we can perceive as a change of color. The only apparent color change due to rub is in the center of the cheek as you pointed out. It is insignificant and may not be present if we rotated the coin in the light. While AU coins have been graded in the low MS ranges for decades, this is not one of them.

    Since we all have personal grading standards, your opinion is valid. An opinion becomes even more valid when it can be backed up. I grade AU coins MS all day long to meet prevailing industry standards. This coin would not be one of them.

    PS IMO, anyone calling this coin "Brown" needs to study the colors of copper coins.

  • jughead1893jughead1893 Posts: 361 ✭✭✭

    66

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 20,886 ✭✭✭✭✭

    they call blue and green copper BN also. It just means "Not RD or RB", not literally "Brown."

    And I always laugh at GTGs of, "either 64 or 58".
    Sounds a lot like a net 62 or 63.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said: "THEY call blue and green copper BN also. It just means "Not RD or RB", not literally "Brown."

    Who THEY? Otherwise, this coin will be graded MS-something BROWN right?

    The "blues" can be turned back to "brown" very easily in a few seconds; however, I've never seen a coin this light reflective called "brown." Anyone have more than one example.

  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 774 ✭✭✭✭

    @Treashunt said:

    @Soldi said:
    The shield, the cheek, the wreath, the ribbon, the spots and the totally in-natural color. AU58.

    ummmmmm..

    Unnatural?

    What is in-natural?

    "in-natural" is unnatural as "in a typo"
    I leave the typo's in there to attract the guys with nothing better to do, but proof read things they already figured out

  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 7,807 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The color is hard to interpret. It almost looks like toned silver. From what I see on the feathers, I'm going with RB. Clean surfaces. I see some toning spots, but nothing that screams "carbon spot" to me. Strike is a touch soft in places. I know they're DPLs on the reverse, but it seems the TPGs sometimes don't like these so much. 65+ or 66 seems about right.

    For some reason, I find it difficult to get very far away from Mark's guess. :)

  • lkeneficlkenefic Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think the "spots" are in a hugely major focal area and are somewhat enhanced by the enlargement of the photo... 65+ RB

    Collecting ... dust

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  • Eric_BabulaEric_Babula Posts: 173 ✭✭✭

    I'm not an IHC expert, or any expert for that matter, but my guess is MS-66RB. I do see more 65 guesses, tho. For your sake, I'm hoping it's a 66, or maybe better! Very nice coin!!!

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What I see is gunmetal grey?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is the color shade of a BROWN GEM Uncirculated Indian. Note the DARK BROWN areas where the surface is no longer "as made." This is called "compression rub." It is similar to what we often see on the cheek of these cents.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    This is the color shade of a BROWN GEM Uncirculated Indian. Note the DARK BROWN areas where the surface is no longer "as made." This is called "compression rub." It is similar to what we often see on the cheek of these cents.

    The color looks orange. Can you correct your white color balance?

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Insider2 said:

    This is the color shade of a BROWN GEM Uncirculated Indian. Note the DARK BROWN areas where the surface is no longer "as made." This is called "compression rub." It is similar to what we often see on the cheek of these cents.

    The color looks orange. Can you correct your white color balance?

    My white balance is ALWAYS off. IMO, the coin is brown enough to make my point; however, I'll try to make it more brown. :)

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 624 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I definitely agree with your first sentence, 😉but only partly agree with the second one. Many points in your posts could be better made if your white color balance were corrected.

    I bet if you start a thread asking for instructions on how to do that, you will receive some helpful replies.

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How's this? >:)

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 624 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019 2:22PM

    @Insider2 said:

    How's this? >:)

    Lovely deep orange.😊

    Mark Feld of Heritage Auctions

  • keetskeets Posts: 20,988 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hate to interrupt a spirited discussion, but I feel MS66RB is appropriate..


  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @Insider2 said:

    How's this? >:)

    Lovely deep orange.😊

    How did you like the rotated image? >:)

    I photograph everything using florescent light so I can see what I'm trying to "capture." The colors are always off.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SSR

    We've covered AU to 66 already. Please let us see the label soon. Thanks.

  • SSRSSR Posts: 115 ✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019 3:06PM

    I believe this is as good a time to reveal the final grade and ** THE WINNER.**

    Firstly thank you everyone for guessing. It seems there were some vast span of grades!

    I purposely selected this coin for GTG because of the color/toning/grade combination for the year. A quick note regarding the spots on the reverse they are not nearly as pronounced as in the pictures, in hand they are not that noticeable.

    As Insider2 pointed out correctly "Furthermore Mark, due to your position, you probably see a lot more graded coins from the TPGS's in two auctions than most of us will see in ten years! Therefore, your opinion carries a lot of weight so I expect your guess to be more correct than mine in any GTG contest." And was he right.

    **Winner and Honorary Award for this tough GTG goes to a very deserving Mark Feld @MFeld **

    Phone picture to show the true color in hand.

    Other correct winners who guessed both the grade and color designation after Mark are @keets @Eric_Babula @Smudge

    ParadimeCoins
    www.paradimecoins.com
  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,196 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm too late to put in a valid guess....(though, I'll admit to going lower than 66). :blush:

    But I'm interested in any body who would like to expound on the color, and how it came to be?! Certainly not a common way to see copper/bronze coins.

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I was wondering if it were an extreme example of alloy mixing issues.
    I have a 1909 IHC that is similar to this. The reverse has one bright red spot while the rest is off white.

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  • ashelandasheland Posts: 13,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That's a beauty!

  • keetskeets Posts: 20,988 ✭✭✭✭✭

    But I'm interested in any body who would like to expound on the color, and how it came to be?! Certainly not a common way to see copper/bronze coins.

    i have seen a number of Modern Proof Cents from the early 1960's with a very light, non-red color similar to the OP coin. I always assume it came from a combination of the rinse used by the Mint, the cello packaging and heat during long storage. even if that is how those coins came to be that color it probably doesn't explain how the OP did the same.


  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 774 ✭✭✭✭

    I will not excuse my ignorance in this coin grading discussion, but I have never seen color like that before and I was only off by 8 points. I mean right?

  • fiftysevenerfiftysevener Posts: 356 ✭✭✭

    CAC label has thumb print on it and may have to downgrade

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