My first PCGS World Coin Submission... GRADES and TRUE VIEWS ARE IN!
Bob13
Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hoping to stimulate a little discussion here on the dark side. I just submitted my first world coin order to PCGS - package delivered but not yet logged in. Turnaround time is currently estimated at 22 days. So... thinking maybe we can do some collective guess the grade and see how we do. Depending on response, I'll maybe post one of the coins to discuss every couple of days. Most of these coins are shown in a prior thread here.
Before we get started though, 2 observations:
1. Submitting takes forever! When I add up all the time it takes to gather the coins, place in flips, label, fill out submission form (harder to find PCGS number for World coins), and then consider the time spent at the post office with registered mail - it is many hours. The last two times I have gone to the post office to send registered mail they have said "Oh good - we have a trainee here today who needs to learn how to do that!" I now box my coins at home, go to a box store next to my PO where they have the registered mail tape and have them put my box in another larger box that is then sealed.
Anyone have any tips on how to speed up the process?
- I am not sure that the US Sheldon scale 1-70 applies very well to coins that might be >300 years old. I am really curious how some will grade a couple of the coins below, based on the relatively crude minting technology at the time. Some of these I can see a wide range of grades, or even no-grades based on cleaning, etc.
And maybe another point of discussion - should I slab these coins at all? I really like having the coins raw, but for me it came down to 1) preserving the coins, and 2) making sure I wasn't making too many big errors in purchasing raw coins.
Anyway here is my submission form (cropped to take out some info):
And here is coin #1: 1511 Batzen from Salzburg
Any thoughts on grade? If I can get a few guesses, I can share my thoughts. Thanks!
My current "Box of 20"
Comments
goodluck, what a awesome submission, can't wait to see the grades you get!!
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
Some comment on the number one. Submit it online should be faster. Also I use priority mail with some insurance anywhere from 600 to 2000. If the total value is 10k I will buy 2k insurance if it is one k or below I will not buy insurance. I print out the shipping label from usps site and drop the package to the post office. Yes it will take some time to put the coin in and label them but ten coin is not too bad. When I submit sometimes I submit more than 50. I try to submit lots of coin in a year for the membership then I stop renewing it. I will join again when I have over 100 coins to submit.
Very nice submission, good luck !!!
From the picture I would give that a 53 or 55.
Well, I am a bit paranoid and like to send coins of value registered too. I have run into the 'trainee' issue before too as I have a smaller town post office. I don't mind and actually my PO folks are friendly and pleasant. I've had too many Priority Mail things go on walkabout around the country. So far only one thing lost, but the more time it spends running around on trucks, the more time for it to get lost/tampered with. Not that my stuff is so valuable, but still. Registered takes a long time but it is accounted for every step of the way. IIRC the Hope Diamond was sent registered once. That reliable.
That said, I have my own roll of paper tape and box everything up at home. I buy it on Amazon because finding it anywhere is close to impossible. I'd rather do that than try and find a box store to do it. If nothing else the closest UPS store (if they even have it) is not close to the PO. I save a step or three that way.
AU 50
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You certainly don't have to find the PCGS pop# for coins you submit. It's helpful for them, but if it's taking too much time for you, don't do it. It also may be more confusing for them if you list a PCGS pop# with a different date, or if the pop# you give them is actually a different variety of the type. Country, date, denomination, and variety if any (or catalogue number for medals) are sufficient, they can identify the pieces themselves beyond that. You can also ship via FedEx which may be easier as they will pick the box up from your location.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Thanks for the info and the grade guesses! Ownership adds a point, so I am hoping for either 55 or 58! I like this coin for the sharp strike, rich color and luster (the latter two not as evident in the pic above - hoping the Trueview will capture these better). This was purchased from WAG online and was described in their catalog as "Prachtexemplar. Herrliche Patina. Vorzüglich +".
On the downside, this is definitely a coin with some wear. There is also some die rust? on the obverse at about 11 o'clock.
My submission was received today - so we will know soon!
Coin #2 is a Austrian Taler. Thoughts on grade for this one?
My current "Box of 20"
55 on the Austrian Thaler.
Mmmm, extremely nice.
But, it is fair to compare these coins to modern coins as far as grade and pretty well everything else is concerned?
Is the Sheldon scale meant to be used here? what do you compare it with?
Best of luck with the results. I am looking forward to seeing the results.
My guess on the two imaged in this thread:
1706 taler - AU-58
1511 batzen - AU-55
@YQQ - I am with you - I am realizing how hard it is to use the Sheldon scale. When I look at some of these coins already in slabs the quality and eye appeal can be all over the place for the same numerical grade.
Anyway, for this 1706 Taler it is really beautiful, even with some wear. I expect AU58, and am hoping for a +! It was purchased from Keunker Auctions where it was described as "Hubishe patina, Vorzuglich."
Next coin on the list I don't have great pictures of - just those from the auction.
1/4 Taler from Teutonic Order. Please let me know what you think!
My current "Box of 20"
Hmmm... so this last coin didn't get too much love or generate too much discussion! It was also from Kunker but one of their eLive auctions. It was described as "Feine Patina, winz. Henkelspur, sehr schön-vorzüglich". In hand, I am not sure I can appreciate the handle trace. This coin has generally muted luster, but some deep old colorful toning in the devices at the periphery. You can also see some die clashing particularly on the reverse rim from about 8-10 o'clock. I am hoping for a straight grade about XF45.
PCGS has had my coins for a week now (expected turn around 22 days). Anyone had a recent world order that can comment on turn around time?
Next up is this 1662 Taler from Brunswick. Certainly looking forward to the TV on this one!
And some in hand photos.
My current "Box of 20"
Nice submission!
My WAG would be:
50
58
40
45
8 Reales Madness Collection
Look forward to seeing your results and truviews. You have a beautiful group of coins there that should do well at PCGS!
Well, maybe I am being overly optimistic, but per the PCGS statistics page, the World Coin regular service turnaround time is now at 15 days (from 22).
So I want to move this along. For the 1662 Taler, I am hoping for 55, but could see 50-53, too. I think too much luster for 45 but we will see. It was described as "Hubishe patina, leichte prageschwache, fast Vorzuglich"
The next coin is a real puzzler to grade based on horrendous strike. A James I Shilling:
My current "Box of 20"
It's a tough bunch since it's hard to clearly see how much luster is present in the photo and that's the main criteria for the XF/AU separation, as well as the grades within the AU range.
8 Reales Madness Collection
Totally agree - hard to know where to go with some of these. The shilling I posted has a lot of luster, but has a weak strike and looks beat up in some ways - still beautiful to me. But could see it anywhere from 35-55!
Here are the next two, I am pretty busy this week and would appreciate any feedback on these next two.
My current "Box of 20"
OK - Grades are in, with 9/10 True Views! (Certs don't work yet.)
First observation - very fast turnaround time. Just at 3 weeks. Second observation - ownership subtracts a few points! Most of these I thought had a touch of rub which would have limited them to AU grades... Nonetheless, I am very happy with this bunch!
Batzen MS64
1706 Austria Thaler MS63
ND Teutonic Order Taler MS62 (very surprised by this one!)
1662 Brunswick Taler MS63+ (haven't seen too many world "+" coins!)
ND Shilling Scratched! I was afraid of that. Was hoping it would be overlooked as it is toned and not that noticeable at first glance.
1606 Austria Taler MS63
1605 Coburg Taler AU58
1595 Saxony Three Brothers Taler (was NGC 55) Au58
ND French Grosso MS63
TV pending!
1760 Brunswick 2 Mariengroschen MS63
My current "Box of 20"
Wow Bob, your first submission seems victorious! The TrueView option is also a must with PCGS submissions, we all wait to drool over Phil’s new glamour shots.
Other than that, you pretty much heard all the good comments to help you go through the next process a lot easier. This is the first world submission with Pcgs numbers next to the coins that I see. And I too am proud of my submissions, when I was submitting to old Anacs with the small holder I'd get comments of the sort : « well done Dimitri! « and I would be ecstatic!
That’s a nice bunch, it seems that you have already found your niche in the Darkside. And yes, the Sheldon scale is mostly unfit to be used with such older and more crude coins, let alone that in pure Sheldon, grade = price , which isn’t necessary equal to what a technical grade should be. But we assume they do their best, and we have become not only accustomed, but rather addicted to labels and numbers, and I’m sure you know the rest!
Edited to add: I’m surprised at the quick turnaround, that included TrueViews too. PCGS Europe has a consistently low turnaround, but there is no TrueView option, and the images were so much worse than Phil’s, that they now image the slab with the coin, for gold shield submissions. Like this.
myEbay
DPOTD 3
great results and beautiful group of coins!
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Nice...
Nicely done!
8 Reales Madness Collection
An amazing group of world coins!
Removed
@Bob13,
You did very well; the coins look great, and the grades seem nice too. Even the James I Shilling looks nice. That’s a coin where the holder adds negative value because of the details grade. A light scratch is no big deal, but the word SCRATCHED on the insert is not helpful.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I appreciate all the comments! @SYRACUSIAN - thanks for weighing in, I really enjoy your posts. As you said, I am not that sure that the Sheldon scale works for these coins, but, if nothing else, it helps me calibrate what I might find in ALREADY certified coins that I am seeing in an auction. @PCGSPhoto 's pictures are wonderful and are part of the package for World coins in the US office. Thanks Phil for the wonderful images!
This was a learning experience for me. With one exception, all of these coins were purchased raw, from a variety of sources (and some were first purchases from that source). Two of the ten I was able to get a trusted/experienced pair of eyes to evaluate for me before purchase. Mostly what I was hoping for with grading was to make sure that I wasn't buying too many problem coins. I was at a show once and a dealer I trust showed me a couple "worked on" coins. I really could not spot the work done. (As another topic, these particular coins were ALREADY certified - in problem-free holders. So I realize that TPG is not a failsafe.) And I agree with @EVillageProwler - that James I Shilling IS really nice, and may not stay in its holder!
Finally, grading from pictures is tough, and so feedback from the members here, while valuable, is limited to the images I can provide.
Still waiting for the last image to pop up on my French coin!
My current "Box of 20"
Bob - outstanding results. The Austrian talers were no surprise, but the Teutonic Order piece caught me off guard. I was almost certain that the flat details on the obverse suggested wear rather than a flat strike. It goes to show that a coin in hand far exceeds what a photo can tell you. Your selectivity with regards to eye appear, surface originality, and patina paid off well. Congrats once again on the submission.
Big congrats on the submission grading run! What stands out is the consistent eye appeal across the submission. Technical grades vary and swing from loose to conservative over time - eye appeal remains. Great choices.
In terms of grading accuracy - i thought both of the Austrians had a bit more wear to warrant a 63 (look to me a point lower) and the Teutonic is a bit flat relative to mint state samples I have seen. Perhaps the eye appeal justified a bounce. Well done.
Taler Custom Set
Ancient Custom Set
What a great sub! Congrats! Beautiful coins!
Adding the last picture....
FRANCE, Royal. Philippe III le Hardi (the Bold) or Philippe IV le Bel (the Fair). 1270-1285 or 1285–1314. AR Gros tournois à la O rond (24.5mm, 4.11 g, 7h). Short cross pattée / Châtel tournois; border of twelve lis. Van Hengel 333.01; Duplessy 213 (Philippe IV); Ciani 202 (Philippe IV).
My current "Box of 20"
Gorgeous!
8 Reales Madness Collection
Wow, that is an amazing group of coins!!! Really puts in perspective the age of even the earliest US Coins when you are looking at a coin from the late 1500's! Congrats on the grades and such consistently great eye appeal! Almost makes me want to go dark side. Almost
Roseanne Barrett I - CAC Morgan Dollar Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (Retired)
Roseanne Barrett - CAC Basic Seated Liberty Type Set, Circulation Strikes
I do not receive great grades like that on my submissions.
Congratulations that you did !!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
All very interesting coins. Thanks for sharing!
A hardy congrats! Great looking coins
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
So youre saying "crack it out to better deceive a buyer"
No. That’s not at all what he meant.
If the coin is details graded because it is scratched and then an attempt to remove that information by removing it back to raw and selling it is nothing but. That's exactly what deceptive sellers do. Coins such as those sold by Great Southern coin that would clearly grade details mostly but sold raw to change it into a question mark.
If not so then tell me for what coin the below sentence is not true:
"That’s a coin where the holder adds negative value because of the details grade"
No shite
@Acop this is the kind of cynical attitude I see often on the U.S. Coin forum, but rarely over here on the dark side. I suggest you wander back over there or lighten up.
If you spent any amount of time on this side of the forum, you'd realize that @EVillageProwler likes to enjoy his coins raw, naked, in their natural form. He's not a dealer and rarely sells his coins. He knows that one can add value by having a coin graded and put in a holder, but this isn't one of those times. His suggestion was that Bob should simply enjoy the coin free of the holder, instead of feel bad about someone else's opinion of the coin.
Cheers.
I'm all pumped up OD
Love the ignore feature, great for poofs.
The coin is what it is. I think it gets details graded 50% of the time.
I took EVPs point to be that a huge disfiguring SCRATCH and a shallow toned over scrape are labeled the same. And that that label will sometimes override any of the coins virtues. As I said above, applying the same grading standards of US coinage to coins over 400 years old gets tricky.
Enjoy the holiday.
My current "Box of 20"
One should only value nickel and dime opinions from nickel and dime people at face value.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Nice to see Crypto following me around again.
@ACop,
Why the aggressive attitude here? I have no way of knowing if you lurk here often and have already developed a sense of the "feel" of this forum, but @OriginalDan is correct in saying that I enjoy my coins raw. I also do not know how familiar you are with British hammered coinage, but often they come imperfect -- either by process of their birthing or that Mother Time wasn't kind to them. The vast majority of these coins are sold raw; US auction houses and one retail dealership (that come to mind) that sell these slabbed are atypical of how these coins are normally traded.
That James I Shilling is an attractive coin; the reverse scratch does not bother me. In "British grading" standards, that scratch just gets added in when computing both the technical grade as well as its value/price. It's bad enough that a survivor of those turbulent times get entombed by ugly plastic, but then to deny it a proper grade assessment is just adding insult to injury.
And, in case you do not frequent here often to have a feel for this place ... well, I hope you stick around and get to know us better. We like coins, medals and anything that is numismatic. We don't care much for micro-grading when showcasing our collections. Eye appeal trumps assessed US TPG grade; after all, how well can one consistently do when grading off a flat 2-dimensional image anyway?!?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Yes. ^^^ is an accurate take on my words.
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I hope the OP doesn't mind that I show off some of my raw coins:
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Yes, yes, I've only been posting here for 13 years so not sure yet if I'll be sticking around. Maybe you didnt recognize me since ive abstained from posting GTG threads recently. You know those posts that as you say I invented.
Huh???
I’m not young anymore and my memory isn’t as good as it was. If I wronged you previously and you felt I need to apologize, kindly refresh my memory.
“Here” = the ancient and world coins section of our host’s platform.
Regards,
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com