Who's wrong, the RedBook or the TPG's --- PCGS, NGC, et al.

keets

I wanted to check a mintage on a Connecticut Commemorative and the easiest way was to just look in a RedBook. As I was browsing through the Commem section an anomaly made itself known to me: PCGS, NGC etc. tend to encapsulate several Commemoratives with the reverse facing out, on the side with the insert. That is universally the obverse and it got me wondering why they do that and why they decide it should be done on some but not all.

So who's right, the RedBook or the TPG's?? Which side is the obverse and which side is the reverse??

Al H.

PerryHall

It's anyone's guess unless the authorizing legislation or other mint documentation says which side is the obverse and which side is the reverse.

RogerB

Dig into the US Mint's website. You'll find the answer there - but it will take some looking around.

1630Boston

When coins used to be struck by hand, the side of the coin that was on the anvil die was always the obverse. The side that took the hammer strike was the reverse. Nowadays, with machine struck coins, there is no longer an "anvil die" at all. So which side is which? This checklist will help you determine the obverse and reverse of less familiar coins.

The obverse has the portrait. If neither side (or both sides) have portraits, try to apply item #2 below.
The obverse side is different. In other words, the obverse side doesn't have the "common type." A good example of this is the Euro coin, which doesn't have a portrait. However, each country has its own design on one side, with a design common to all countries on the other side. The coins are said to share the same "reverse," more or less by mutual assent among collectors.
This rule would also apply to a country that has a coat of arms (or some other common device) on its coinage (but no portrait.) If the common device appears on multiple denominations, the side without that device is the obverse.
The side that bears the name of the country is usually considered the obverse in cases where the coin meets neither #1 or #2 above.
Look at a proof set. If you have access to a special mint-issued set, such as a proof set, you can determine which side the mint considers to be the obverse because this side will be face up in the proof coin holder!

Look it up in the "Standard Catalog of World Coins". I list this option last because if you had the book, you probably wouldn't be reading this checklist.
Unfortunately, collectors disagree about many of the coins that don't fit one of the categories above, (and some that do), so whatever the book says about these coins should be taken with a grain of salt.

Additional Hints to Differentiate the Obverse from the Reverse
There are some consistencies amongst the different coins throughout the world. Since it is impossible to tell by looking at a coin which design was produced by the anvil die in which one was produced by the hammer die, most countries follow some standard format.

For example, the date that the coin was made is usually placed on the obverse of the coin. Additionally, if there is a portrait of a monarch or some other significant person, that is also usually placed on the obverse. Therefore, the reverse side is usually the one that was produced by the anvil die.

**The bottom line is that there isn't a scientific rule to differentiate the obverse from the reverse.

It is become tradition that numismatists will generally agree upon which side of the coin is the obverse and which side of the coin is the reverse based upon commonly accepted practices.**

Soldi

Bower's Book on Commems

ChrisH821

Easy, everyone's right. Both sides are the obverse on a commem

1630Boston

This from PCGS

A Commemorative for Connecticut

The year 1935 was the proper date to observe the 300th anniversary of the founding of the colony of Connecticut, and, to the credit of the issuers of this commemorative half dollar, the Connecticut Tercentenary Commission did not start the celebration early, nor did they end it late.

The obverse design was adapted from an 1855 painting by Charles DeWolf Brownell owned by the Connecticut Historical Society that depicted the Charter Oak, the most prominent icon in Connecticut history, a tree in which early colonists secreted their royal charter when agents of King James II desired to confiscate it. The reverse depicted an eagle of starkly modernistic form (somewhat similar to the eagle motifs used in Germany at the time), perched, with appropriate legends surrounding. Artist Kreis later used a related eagle motif when he designed the reverse of the 1936 Bridgeport half dollar.

For a number of years numismatists were divided as to which side should be called the obverse and which the reverse with David M. Bullowa designating the eagle side as the obverse, following notations in Mint records. Today the preference is that the oak tree side is the obverse.

more here: https://www.pcgs.com/books/commemoratives/Chapter08-091.aspx

Insider2

This is one of my MAJOR objections to the way things are. I posted about this in an attempt to get some kind of standardization between the TPGS. The problem starts with the "official" government design designations for obverse and reverse. This is carried over to all the numismatic references, dealers and finally the TPGS's opinion.

These are commemorative coins. IMHO, it should not matter what the Mint or the designers consider the obverse. The coins speak for themselves. One of many examples we tried to change:

Oregon Trail Memorial. Thes coins are slabbed Indian side up. That is considered the official obverse; however the Redbook shows it as the reverse. I agree 100% with the Redbook in this case as the DATE, IGWT, and what the coin was issued for are on that side while the denomination is on the other!

Now take the Delaware Tercentenary. The Redbook and the TPGS's used the official reverse as the obverse!!! Look at the coin. The date, reason for its existence, and official obverse is ignored.

It is never going to happen but all it would take is to change about twenty coins.

1. Ignore the "official" obv/rev designs.
2. Flip the Redbook images to what makes sense.
3. TPGS's change how they do things now.

BTW, for two weeks, ICG bucked convention and slabbed many of these coins with the "correct" side up but we returned to the side everyone has customarily considered the obverse. IMO, if PCGS had done it first, NGC and ANACS would have eventually changed too.

Insider2

Swiatek & Breen is a good book to have if you collect these coins. They show the "official" sides.

keets

I guess i wonder mainly because it seems like by now there should be agreement on what is what. I think Roger's point is that the "answer" is in the Mint records authorizing each coin, it almost certainly stipulates which side is which.

Insider2

@keets said:
I wanted to check a mintage on a Connecticut Commemorative and the easiest way was to just look in a RedBook. As I was browsing through the Commem section an anomaly made itself known to me: PCGS, NGC etc. tend to encapsulate several Commemoratives with the reverse facing out, on the side with the insert. That is universally the obverse and it got me wondering why they do that and why they decide it should be done on some but not all.

So who's right, the RedBook or the TPG's?? Which side is the obverse and which side is the reverse??

Al H.

I got sidetracked. This is another great example. The eagle is the OFFICIAL REVERSE! The Redbook got it all screwed up right from the beginning! It was screwed up even before the first authentication bureau was started. It all comes down to the Redbook. What the coin commemorates BELONGS ON THE OBVERSE, along with the date and IGWT. In the case of this coin, the tree is the official obverse too.

Insider2

@keets said:
I guess i wonder mainly because it seems like by now there should be agreement on what is what. I think Roger's point is that the "answer" is in the Mint records authorizing each coin, it almost certainly stipulates which side is which.

Some of the "official" Mint designations for the obverse don't make any sense. Example, sometimes they consider the denomination side to be the obverse and sometimes they consider it the reverse. As I wrote: the coin designs speak for themselves. Screw the Redbook, the Mint, how its been done in our lifetime, and the TPGS's.

Let's standardize the series and finally put what is being commemorated ON THE OBVERSE!

Insider2

I found my old discussion that fizzled...LOL

I'm on a mission to standardize Commemorative half dollars!
Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,182 ✭✭✭✭✭ June 28, 2018 12:22PM in U.S. Coin Forum
Vintage Commemorative half dollars are presented in several ways by the Redbook, TPGS's, and reference books such as Breen/ Swiatek for example. The Battle of Gettysburg is an example of a coin displayed correctly by EVERYONE. IMO, the Oregon Trail is an example of one that is not. IMO, The Redbook is correct. Others are not.

So, the deed is done As of several weeks ago, one TPGS has been slabbing the DATE and SUBJECT of the coin as the obverse. This goes against decades of usage. I'll be speaking with Jeff Garrett about this in an attempt to switch the Redbook images sooner or later (good luck ).

CaptHenway

I have had discussions on this topic with Ken Bressett since I was working for Coin World in the 1970's. Got a few of them changed. Good luck getting everybody to agree on a standard.
TD

keets

and again, I am worried because I tend to be in agreement with what Insider has posted. to quote the Terminator, "I think I need a vacation" to consider that. somewhere, in the Legislation as pointed out by Roger, is the answer to my question. I think the original intent of the designer and the original Legislation should be honored.

Insider2

I've needed to correct my post above. The CT coin is slabbed correctly by the TPGS's in spite of the Redbook.

johnny9434

cool thread I like and very valid question as well

RogerB

There is a response from mint HQ on this subject in RG104 E-235 Vol 011. But, I did not photograph or transcribe the page when I saw it several years ago. It is dated sometime after Feb 24, 1877.

Legally, circulating silver and gold coins have an eagle on the reverse. Other coins, it is the dated side or the one with the dominant national symbol. But many also call the side with "USA" the obverse if there is any ambiguity - such as the Oregon Trail half.

Sometimes we have designs that are so profoundly banal - Iowa, USO, US Capitol, Constitution, others - that it might be best to call the edge the "obverse."

MasonG

I believe the submitter can request whichever side he wants to be up. Could account for some of them, anyway.

oih82w8

I thought that the "side" with the date was considered the Obverse. This one has it on both...odd.

From the U.S. Mint website;

Obverse Inscriptions

BRIDGEPORT CONNECTICUT CENTENNIAL
P.T. BARNUM
1836-1936

https://www.usmint.gov/coins/coin-medal-programs/commemorative-coins/bridgeport-connecticut-centennial-half

Raybo

I really hate "cut and paste" except when it really needs to be "cut and paste", and that's only when it's asked for.
I have asked questions about mintages in the past with no joy, and I expect that keets will get the same excellent results.

ricko

Well now... I never really considered this issue....I guess my OCD is simply not developed enough I must work on this... I will begin this afternoon by separating my jar of jelly beans into multiple jars of all the same colors....Next I will work on the can of mixed nuts....How could I have ignored these issues all these years??? Cheers, RickO

Soldi

I never thought there was ever a doubt when it came to this "Issue" commemorative.

Now then an Albany Commemorative can have its questions, but Gertrude said; The Beaver is the obverse.

topstuf

Just noticed same thing on newp Connecticut.
All I wanna look at is the tree.

I have to look at the "back" of my Vermont.

Soldi

@topstuf said:
Just noticed same thing on newp Connecticut.
All I wanna look at is the tree.

I have to look at the "back" of my Vermont.

Man! Who's to say that you are looking at the slab from the correct side. Is the grade side the obverse of the slab?

ECHOES

@oih82w8 said:
I thought that the "side" with the date was considered the Obverse. This one has it on both...odd.

To my understanding the 'side' with the date is the obverse.

CaptHenway

Lewis and Clark gold dollar.

topstuf

@CaptHenway said:
Lewis and Clark gold dollar.

Kccoin

I would say the words Liberty generally make the obverse

keets

I never thought there was ever a doubt when it came to this "Issue" commemorative.

you seem to have read the OP and assumed facts not in evidence. re-read it for clarity.