CAC is just a gimmick to examine a lot of coins at other people's expense, then buy the best for resale and quick profit.
They only buy CAC coins that dealers are willing to sell them. I'm a collector, and I have all of my coins that merited a CAC. There's no need to begrudge JA. He's a positive asset to our wonderful hobby, Yes, I'm sure his firm makes a profit, but that's OK. His fees are super low, and as I've noted in the past, when a collector submits a coin and it does not "pass", the $14.50 is refunded!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
No one is "begrudging JA" or anyone else clever enough to design this profitable program.
The CAC fees are low because YOU are paying CAC to pick what CAC will profit from, and reject the rest. CAC will buy from anyone who is selling - you do not have to sell, of course.
It's "cherry picking" YOUR collection at YOUR expense -- and a lot of collectors don't "get it."
You were overjoyed to buy such a PQ nice coin, even thinking it deserved an upgrade. People say "don't crack it out", or "you could lose the old holder". You send it in with baited breath await the ultimate verdict. You get the notification, "not CAC"!!! The dread and anxiety are overwhelming and you are thrown into a deep depression. What could the problem be?? You could always call 911. "What's your emergency"? You: "A coin(s) I sent to CAC did not get approved!!!" You will be under close observation for the duration!
cac cannot reject my coins because I reject cac > @RogerB said:
No one is "begrudging JA" or anyone else clever enough to design this profitable program.
The CAC fees are low because YOU are paying CAC to pick what CAC will profit from, and reject the rest. CAC will buy from anyone who is selling - you do not have to sell, of course.
It's "cherry picking" YOUR collection at YOUR expense -- and a lot of collectors don't "get it."
Please stop confusing the issue with facts, as some here don't really care for that as well as not being conducive for certain individuals corporate strategies.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Luxor said:
cac cannot reject my coins because I reject cac > @RogerB said:
No one is "begrudging JA" or anyone else clever enough to design this profitable program.
The CAC fees are low because YOU are paying CAC to pick what CAC will profit from, and reject the rest. CAC will buy from anyone who is selling - you do not have to sell, of course.
It's "cherry picking" YOUR collection at YOUR expense -- and a lot of collectors don't "get it."
Please stop confusing the issue with facts, as some here don't really care for that as well as not being conducive for certain individuals corporate strategies.
If you are on their "collectors" list you only pay for coins that sticker. In that case the biggest loss is shipping costs. If submitters send in coins not worth the sticker it is their problem not cac. JA has called me up to diffuse concerns I had which shows professional humility for a multi-millionaire.
RogerB says, "It's cherry picking YOUR collection at you YOUR expense - and a lot of collectors don't get it..."
I'm not sure how identifying coins in a collection and paying OVER market for the better ones constitutes "Cherry Picking".
In fact, CAC makes it tougher for dealers to buy the nicer coins as just "average" material.
@JVC said:
JA has his opinion and I have mine. Attached is a coin that I love and did not CAC.
JVC, IMO perhaps you just don't have the correct submitting 'touch' or travel in the 'right' circles as the borderline PL coin below with 3 deep hits on the cheek, heavy die striations, and subpar strike for an 85-CC had no problem garnering a sticker.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@cnncoins said:
I'm not sure how identifying coins in a collection and paying OVER market for the better ones constitutes "Cherry Picking".
I've seen them (Presumably CAC) drop a bunch on Heritage at around PCGS price. (Buy it now)
Got a great deal on one...Once.
Left me scratching my head because it was a no brainer PCGS + and a BIG $ jump.
At least I thought it was CAC because they were all CAC coins from the same anonymous source.
@cnncoins said:
RogerB says, "It's cherry picking YOUR collection at you YOUR expense - and a lot of collectors don't get it..."
I'm not sure how identifying coins in a collection and paying OVER market for the better ones constitutes "Cherry Picking".
In fact, CAC makes it tougher for dealers to buy the nicer coins as just "average" material.
That's a big part of the problem - non-awareness. It's OK to be aware of what is happening, and accept it -- as another poster said, "Don't confuse the issue with facts." Kind of like a carnival "Fun House" - you know it's all mirrors and puppets but spend you money anyway.
PS: CAC does NOT buy "above market." Market is what CAC sells your premium coin for- and is always much more than they will pay you.
When I am preparing a batch of coins for CAC I review each one under magnification and lighting one last time. Trying not to waste their time, if I decide it may not bean, it stays home. When I send a coin therefore, I expect it to bean. If the coin fails to bean I again examine it to learn what I could possibly have missed ( I usually review these coins immediately upon returning home).
I'm usually 8 out of 10 and get my share of gold beans. Rarely am I just miffed with a coin not beaning. I understand CAC keeps notes and you can call to inquire if you just don't understand, but I've never had the stones to call. It seems like 2nd guessing the teacher.
I think it's a great service for those honest enough with themselves to know they don't have all the answers.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
CAC certainly pays more for coins they CAC than for Non CAC coins, or put another way, they pay "over market" of non CAC material. That is a fact. JA's margins are usually somewhere between 2-6%.
Let's use a PCGS 66 Saint as an example. If you were to sell that coin at "market levels" you would get somewhere between 1800-2000. If, on the other hand, you send it to JA and he CAC's it, you can get somewhere around 3500 for the same coin.
Most collectors can't discern the difference themselves between a CAC and non CAC coin in this example.
How exactly is that NOT helping the collector?? BTW, John makes very little on the resale of this. The submitter, by far, is the big winner.
Let's use a PCGS 66 Saint as an example. If you were to sell that coin at "market levels" you would get somewhere between 1800-2000. If, on the other hand, you send it to JA and he CAC's it, you can get somewhere around 3500 for the same coin.
>
I find it hard to believe anyone would pay $3500 for an $1800 Saint with a green bean, and I support the premise/value of CAC.
At the last FUN show I found exactly one dealer asking those prices for 66 common Saints. Totally absurd markup, don’t you think?
Let's use a PCGS 66 Saint as an example. If you were to sell that coin at "market levels" you would get somewhere between 1800-2000. If, on the other hand, you send it to JA and he CAC's it, you can get somewhere around 3500 for the same coin.
>
I find it hard to believe anyone would pay $3500 for an $1800 Saint with a green bean, and I support the premise/value of CAC.
At the last FUN show I found exactly one dealer asking those prices for 66 common Saints. Totally absurd markup, don’t you think?
Like it or not, the FACT is that for certain coins where a very low percentage obtain CAC's in a certain grade, those with the CAC's do indeed sell for substantially more than those without a CAC. A perfect example are 1904 $20 Liberty's graded MS65 by PCGS. Auction data is flooded with sales data that for those without a CAC, they commonly sell for about $2,300 - $2,500, and for those few with a CAC, there's also plenty of actual sales showing they sell for around $3,600 - $4,300. So while YOU (and others) may choose to not pay that "premium", that's OK. You just won't have one with a CAC, and that's OK too. But for those people that want a CAC on theirs (for an increase in the chance their heirs can sell more easily, and at "fair value"), along with the peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin is solid for the grade, and also peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin does not have "surface" issues that would cause CAC to reject the coin for a CAC, those higher prices are now being paid more regularly. I believe we can all agree "to each his own". But that doesn't mean that MANY coins with CAC's don't regularly sell for substantially higher prices than those without a CAC. They do, and that's just a fact of today's market.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Let's use a PCGS 66 Saint as an example. If you were to sell that coin at "market levels" you would get somewhere between 1800-2000. If, on the other hand, you send it to JA and he CAC's it, you can get somewhere around 3500 for the same coin.
>
I find it hard to believe anyone would pay $3500 for an $1800 Saint with a green bean, and I support the premise/value of CAC.
At the last FUN show I found exactly one dealer asking those prices for 66 common Saints. Totally absurd markup, don’t you think?
Like it or not, the FACT is that for certain coins where a very low percentage obtain CAC's in a certain grade, those with the CAC's do indeed sell for substantially more than those without a CAC. A perfect example are 1904 $20 Liberty's graded MS65 by PCGS. Auction data is flooded with sales data that for those without a CAC, they commonly sell for about $2,300 - $2,500, and for those few with a CAC, there's also plenty of actual sales showing they sell for around $3,600 - $4,300. So while YOU (and others) may choose to not pay that "premium", that's OK. You just won't have one with a CAC, and that's OK too. But for those people that want a CAC on theirs (for an increase in the chance their heirs can sell more easily, and at "fair value"), along with the peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin is solid for the grade, and also peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin does not have "surface" issues that would cause CAC to reject the coin for a CAC, those higher prices are now being paid more regularly. I believe we can all agree "to each his own". But that doesn't mean that MANY coins with CAC's don't regularly sell for substantially higher prices than those without a CAC. They do, and that's just a fact of today's market.
Again I support CAC, and have no problem paying a premium for it (to a point). I just can't believe an informed collector would pay $3500 for a common date 66 Saint under any circumstances. At the last FUN show I was on the hunt for a 66 common Saint and I ended up buying an MS65+ CAC Saint because the surfaces looked better to me than many of the 66's I had looked at. I looked at dozens of 66 Saint's in cases that day and roughly 8 under magnification that were the best looking to the naked eye.
Yes I think 66 cac at that a tough sell - a 74 pct premium. Not a taker - they will have sell it to somebody else. Better hurry - pop of collectors declining!
CDN bid for Pcgs 66 Saint common 3550 for CAC 1925 non CAC . I would pass on the CAC 66 and pick out 2 nice non CAC 65 at 1480 each saving 590. Or could take 66 non CAC at 1925 pick out 65 non CAC at 1480 saving 145 which would buy a nice commem. Double AGW both non CAC options. Investors in the know would spend the 3550 on 2 slabbed 69 AGB apply the change wherever.
But c how guy cry in his beer if 66 Saint does not CAC but ya gotta find willing buyer at that premium make that work - good luck.
Let's use a PCGS 66 Saint as an example. If you were to sell that coin at "market levels" you would get somewhere between 1800-2000. If, on the other hand, you send it to JA and he CAC's it, you can get somewhere around 3500 for the same coin.
>
I find it hard to believe anyone would pay $3500 for an $1800 Saint with a green bean, and I support the premise/value of CAC.
At the last FUN show I found exactly one dealer asking those prices for 66 common Saints. Totally absurd markup, don’t you think?
Like it or not, the FACT is that for certain coins where a very low percentage obtain CAC's in a certain grade, those with the CAC's do indeed sell for substantially more than those without a CAC. A perfect example are 1904 $20 Liberty's graded MS65 by PCGS. Auction data is flooded with sales data that for those without a CAC, they commonly sell for about $2,300 - $2,500, and for those few with a CAC, there's also plenty of actual sales showing they sell for around $3,600 - $4,300. So while YOU (and others) may choose to not pay that "premium", that's OK. You just won't have one with a CAC, and that's OK too. But for those people that want a CAC on theirs (for an increase in the chance their heirs can sell more easily, and at "fair value"), along with the peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin is solid for the grade, and also peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin does not have "surface" issues that would cause CAC to reject the coin for a CAC, those higher prices are now being paid more regularly. I believe we can all agree "to each his own". But that doesn't mean that MANY coins with CAC's don't regularly sell for substantially higher prices than those without a CAC. They do, and that's just a fact of today's market.
Again I support CAC, and have no problem paying a premium for it (to a point). I just can't believe an informed collector would pay $3500 for a common date 66 Saint under any circumstances. At the last FUN show I was on the hunt for a 66 common Saint and I ended up buying an MS65+ CAC Saint because the surfaces looked better to me than many of the 66's I had looked at. I looked at dozens of 66 Saint's in cases that day and roughly 8 under magnification that were the best looking to the naked eye.
Matt - Like it or not, the FACTS demonstrate that collectors (no proof they are informed) are indeed paying that money for those with a CAC. So rather than speculate, I just looked at real hard data. For the 1924 common date Saint, we see that in September 2018 Legend sold one for $3,740. In October 2018, DLRC sold one for $3,850. Also in October 2018 Stack's sold one for $3,600, and in November 2018, Legend's sold one for $3,760. So once again, it's perfectly OK that you and many others may choose to not pay those premiums for one with a CAC, but the fact is, others do choose to, and that's what today's market has become. Coins with CAC's generally sell for premiums (sometimes small), and where coins in a particular grade have a low percentage that merit a CAC, those are indeed selling for larger premiums.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I have only one CAC coin currently and the graysheet price is $600 more because of that little sticker! Crazy, but that's what it says in there... Would I actually get that if I sold? No idea, but that's what it says in there...
I don't need to "FIND" someone to pay 3500 for a CAC 66 Saint. The live CURRENT HIGH BID is 3625 (with 2 others close behind). I can just ship it with an invoice and it's done.
And I would hope ANY informed collector would pay 3500 for a CAC 66 Saint, when they can turn around and sell it for
3625 today!
Don't throw anything but. Can someone tell me just what or why a CAC sticker means. Is it to state that the coin is what it already says it is, or is it just to say, hey this coin is really really nice and therefore needs more dressing. And if so, what are the qualifications based on? Eye Appeal??
I think some of those cac supporters here should scroll up a bit in this thread and take a peek at the 2 pics of the 1885-CC dollars in MS65PL and tell me how much of a cac premium you'd pay for the one that has the sticker vs. the example that wasn't awarded a sticker? I am however pretty certain this is the only single example in existence where a stickered coin is not clearly a far better example than the non-stickered example and easily worth the big market premium and then some.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
While I’m a CAC supporter, I’m not foolish enough to believe that nearly all CAC coins have better eye appeal than coins not CAC’d. That’s why for my collection as I hunt for upgrades, I pass over plenty of coins with CAC’s in the grade I need, simply because the eye appeal TO ME does not meet my desires.
I’ll address the elephant in the room on the recent comments regarding the price differential of common date 66 Saints of those with and without a CAC. While I fully understand the logic of many/most people not willing to pay that high “premium” for a 66 with a CAC, can someone explain why those already owning a nice 66 Saint without a CAC not being willing to pay only $14.50 (plus shipping) to try to get a CAC on their coin, since if they succeeded, the current market value of their coin would then be well over $1,000 higher? That’s what I have difficulty understanding. Perhaps it has to do with what this original post is all about — disappointment of not getting the CAC, since financially, it seems to make no sense not to spend the few dollars in this specific example. Please help me understand. Thanks.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
There have only been a couple that I was sure would bean but failed to do so. My lazy brain tends to concentrate on eye appeal first, then hits. Strike is to me a harder determination to make. When I'm wrong it's usually because the strike was weak.
If you do what you always did, you get what you always got.
I like CAC. In fact, I have more bids on CAC coins than even CAC.
Using the 66 Saint (motto) as an example, the high bid is 3625, that's me. A non stickered coin goes for 1900 or so. PCGS and NGC has graded 42,000 MS66 Saints, CAC has approved 2,200. There is exactly $1725 worth of incentives per coin to submit all the coins to CAC.
I highly encourage everyone, while at a large show, to look very closely at 4 or 5 MS66 CAC Saints(you won't find that many), and compare them to the hundreds (yes there's plenty) of non stickered MS66 coins and you WILL see a noticeable difference in quality. If you didnt like any of the MS66's for $1900 but do not want to shell out $12,000 for a MS67, perhaps a PCGS MS66 CAC coin for under $4,000 is an option, thats what it is, an option.
If you even think the quality is close between the non sticker MS66 Saint and the stickered one, then you have 40,000 Saint to examine and please send me your PCGS MS66 Saints once you get stickers on them, I really love them as they are quite stunning. You will make $1725 a coin. I need a few dozen, and pay by wire transfer. Please.
@winesteven said:
can someone explain why those already owning a nice 66 Saint without a CAC not being willing to pay only $14.50 (plus >shipping) to try to get a CAC on their coin, since if they succeeded, the current market value of their coin would then be well >over $1,000 higher? That’s what I have difficulty understanding.
None of these are CAC'ed and I have no plans on ever sending them in.
(yes they are all 66 or 66+ commons)
@Luxor said:
I think some of those cac supporters here should scroll up a bit in this thread and take a peek at the 2 pics of the 1885-CC dollars in MS65PL and tell me how much of a cac premium you'd pay for the one that has the sticker vs. the example that wasn't awarded a sticker? I am however pretty certain this is the only single example in existence where a stickered coin is not clearly a far better example than the non-stickered example and easily worth the big market premium and then some.
They must have found something NGC missed and we can't see.
@winesteven said:
can someone explain why those already owning a nice 66 Saint without a CAC not being willing to pay only $14.50 (plus >shipping) to try to get a CAC on their coin, since if they succeeded, the current market value of their coin would then be well >over $1,000 higher? That’s what I have difficulty understanding.
None of these are CAC'ed and I have no plans on ever sending them in.
(yes they are all 66 or 66+ commons)
Yes, I fully agree those are lovely coins. However, you completely ignored the question of why not pay $14.50 for those coins to try to get a CAC, since if you succeed, the current market value would then be well over $1,000 higher for each one that gets the CAC???? Obviously, you’re keeping it in the 66 slab to “maintain value”. Why not spend $14.50 to increase the value quite significantly?
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Luxor said:
I think some of those cac supporters here should scroll up a bit in this thread and take a peek at the 2 pics of the 1885-CC dollars in MS65PL and tell me how much of a cac premium you'd pay for the one that has the sticker vs. the example that wasn't awarded a sticker? I am however pretty certain this is the only single example in existence where a stickered coin is not clearly a far better example than the non-stickered example and easily worth the big market premium and then some.
They must have found something NGC missed and we can't see.
Yeah.....that must be it, LOLOL. I think CAC has a bridge they want to sell you.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Luxor said:
I think some of those cac supporters here should scroll up a bit in this thread and take a peek at the 2 pics of the 1885-CC dollars in MS65PL and tell me how much of a cac premium you'd pay for the one that has the sticker vs. the example that wasn't awarded a sticker? I am however pretty certain this is the only single example in existence where a stickered coin is not clearly a far better example than the non-stickered example and easily worth the big market premium and then some.
They must have found something NGC missed and we can't see.
Yeah.....that must be it, LOLOL. I think CAC has a bridge they want to sell you.
I once bought an expensive Hawaii cent in a PCGS holder that had the portrait outlined ( well done engraving job). PCGS bought it back. Grading services make mistakes and if I were a grading guru like you I would never have had a detail coin returned. It would depend how much they want for the bridge.
@JVC said:
JA has his opinion and I have mine. Attached is a coin that I love and did not CAC.
You must sell that coin immediately! Dispose of it promptly. Email me with your price I will dispatch it promptly.
I seek only to help you with the offending disk.
There have only been a couple that I was sure would bean but failed to do so. My lazy brain tends to concentrate on eye appeal first, then hits. Strike is to me a harder determination to make. When I'm wrong it's usually because the strike was weak.
I agree, to the untrained eye the strike is harder to see than the hits. The coin that cac'd (above) has crispier looking details albeit all banged up it still has a higher looking resolution in the grain on her face. Looks more like Roman slate than Mayan crete
so let me understand those who have an issue with CAC and stickering MS-66 St Gaudens. CAC is a service who:
1) for the price of $14.50 will review a St Gaudens MS-66 and if it stickers will nearly double your money but if it doesn't you lose no value
2) further if it doesn't sticker, that information is not revealed
3) for the price of the $14.50 you have one of the best trained eyes view your coin and will explain why it didn't sticker if that is the case (imagine only having to pay a PGA tour pro $14.50 to look at your swing and give advice)
4) for those who think they are superior graders, they have an instant advantage to find unstickered coins at non cac prices and if their grading abilities are what they think they are get those coins stickered and be rewarded for their skill
5) for those who are not skilled graders you have an option (only if you want) to purchase CAC coins that had been viewed by a superior grader who not only feels the coin is solid for the grade but also feels it has not been doctored.
It works if you can find a buyer at the higher CAC price. And on big ticket material why not.
I don’t have issue stickering certainly if higher CAC bid value (CDN) justifies the expense. Conversely paying double the money for a coin simply bc its CAC and even more expensive than its plus grade just not a deal for me. However - this is an area for the wealthy to play in its their hobby. Sort of like my more expensive yacht in GTAO which has hot-tub and extra helipad.
@winesteven said:
can someone explain why those already owning a nice 66 Saint without a CAC not being willing to pay only $14.50 (plus >shipping) to try to get a CAC on their coin, since if they succeeded, the current market value of their coin would then be well >over $1,000 higher? That’s what I have difficulty understanding.
None of these are CAC'ed and I have no plans on ever sending them in.
(yes they are all 66 or 66+ commons)
Comments
Sounds like a dealer question.
Doesn't it say "collector's universe" here?
My Saint Set
JA has his opinion and I have mine. Attached is a coin that I love and did not CAC.
That's a head scratcher!
My YouTube Channel
I've never seen that quote on his site.
Doesn't bother me at all.
CAC is just a gimmick to examine a lot of coins at other people's expense, then buy the best for resale and quick profit.
They only buy CAC coins that dealers are willing to sell them. I'm a collector, and I have all of my coins that merited a CAC. There's no need to begrudge JA. He's a positive asset to our wonderful hobby, Yes, I'm sure his firm makes a profit, but that's OK. His fees are super low, and as I've noted in the past, when a collector submits a coin and it does not "pass", the $14.50 is refunded!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
No one is "begrudging JA" or anyone else clever enough to design this profitable program.
The CAC fees are low because YOU are paying CAC to pick what CAC will profit from, and reject the rest. CAC will buy from anyone who is selling - you do not have to sell, of course.
It's "cherry picking" YOUR collection at YOUR expense -- and a lot of collectors don't "get it."
I guess I'm one of those collectors that don't get it, but that's OK. Thanks for your thoughts.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
You were overjoyed to buy such a PQ nice coin, even thinking it deserved an upgrade. People say "don't crack it out", or "you could lose the old holder". You send it in with baited breath await the ultimate verdict. You get the notification, "not CAC"!!! The dread and anxiety are overwhelming and you are thrown into a deep depression. What could the problem be?? You could always call 911. "What's your emergency"? You: "A coin(s) I sent to CAC did not get approved!!!" You will be under close observation for the duration!
cac cannot reject my coins because I reject cac > @RogerB said:
Please stop confusing the issue with facts, as some here don't really care for that as well as not being conducive for certain individuals corporate strategies.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
If you are on their "collectors" list you only pay for coins that sticker. In that case the biggest loss is shipping costs. If submitters send in coins not worth the sticker it is their problem not cac. JA has called me up to diffuse concerns I had which shows professional humility for a multi-millionaire.
RogerB says, "It's cherry picking YOUR collection at you YOUR expense - and a lot of collectors don't get it..."
I'm not sure how identifying coins in a collection and paying OVER market for the better ones constitutes "Cherry Picking".
In fact, CAC makes it tougher for dealers to buy the nicer coins as just "average" material.
JVC, IMO perhaps you just don't have the correct submitting 'touch' or travel in the 'right' circles as the borderline PL coin below with 3 deep hits on the cheek, heavy die striations, and subpar strike for an 85-CC had no problem garnering a sticker.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
I've seen them (Presumably CAC) drop a bunch on Heritage at around PCGS price. (Buy it now)
Got a great deal on one...Once.
Left me scratching my head because it was a no brainer PCGS + and a BIG $ jump.
At least I thought it was CAC because they were all CAC coins from the same anonymous source.
My Saint Set
That's a big part of the problem - non-awareness. It's OK to be aware of what is happening, and accept it -- as another poster said, "Don't confuse the issue with facts." Kind of like a carnival "Fun House" - you know it's all mirrors and puppets but spend you money anyway.
PS: CAC does NOT buy "above market." Market is what CAC sells your premium coin for- and is always much more than they will pay you.
When I am preparing a batch of coins for CAC I review each one under magnification and lighting one last time. Trying not to waste their time, if I decide it may not bean, it stays home. When I send a coin therefore, I expect it to bean. If the coin fails to bean I again examine it to learn what I could possibly have missed ( I usually review these coins immediately upon returning home).
I'm usually 8 out of 10 and get my share of gold beans. Rarely am I just miffed with a coin not beaning. I understand CAC keeps notes and you can call to inquire if you just don't understand, but I've never had the stones to call. It seems like 2nd guessing the teacher.
I think it's a great service for those honest enough with themselves to know they don't have all the answers.
CAC certainly pays more for coins they CAC than for Non CAC coins, or put another way, they pay "over market" of non CAC material. That is a fact. JA's margins are usually somewhere between 2-6%.
Let's use a PCGS 66 Saint as an example. If you were to sell that coin at "market levels" you would get somewhere between 1800-2000. If, on the other hand, you send it to JA and he CAC's it, you can get somewhere around 3500 for the same coin.
Most collectors can't discern the difference themselves between a CAC and non CAC coin in this example.
How exactly is that NOT helping the collector?? BTW, John makes very little on the resale of this. The submitter, by far, is the big winner.
I feel nothing cause I’m numb. I’m a numb old man that doesn’t let anything get under my very thick skin. 😡🤬
>
I find it hard to believe anyone would pay $3500 for an $1800 Saint with a green bean, and I support the premise/value of CAC.
At the last FUN show I found exactly one dealer asking those prices for 66 common Saints. Totally absurd markup, don’t you think?
Like it or not, the FACT is that for certain coins where a very low percentage obtain CAC's in a certain grade, those with the CAC's do indeed sell for substantially more than those without a CAC. A perfect example are 1904 $20 Liberty's graded MS65 by PCGS. Auction data is flooded with sales data that for those without a CAC, they commonly sell for about $2,300 - $2,500, and for those few with a CAC, there's also plenty of actual sales showing they sell for around $3,600 - $4,300. So while YOU (and others) may choose to not pay that "premium", that's OK. You just won't have one with a CAC, and that's OK too. But for those people that want a CAC on theirs (for an increase in the chance their heirs can sell more easily, and at "fair value"), along with the peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin is solid for the grade, and also peace of mind of knowing there's a better chance that their coin does not have "surface" issues that would cause CAC to reject the coin for a CAC, those higher prices are now being paid more regularly. I believe we can all agree "to each his own". But that doesn't mean that MANY coins with CAC's don't regularly sell for substantially higher prices than those without a CAC. They do, and that's just a fact of today's market.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Again I support CAC, and have no problem paying a premium for it (to a point). I just can't believe an informed collector would pay $3500 for a common date 66 Saint under any circumstances. At the last FUN show I was on the hunt for a 66 common Saint and I ended up buying an MS65+ CAC Saint because the surfaces looked better to me than many of the 66's I had looked at. I looked at dozens of 66 Saint's in cases that day and roughly 8 under magnification that were the best looking to the naked eye.
Yes I think 66 cac at that a tough sell - a 74 pct premium. Not a taker - they will have sell it to somebody else. Better hurry - pop of collectors declining!
CDN bid for Pcgs 66 Saint common 3550 for CAC 1925 non CAC . I would pass on the CAC 66 and pick out 2 nice non CAC 65 at 1480 each saving 590. Or could take 66 non CAC at 1925 pick out 65 non CAC at 1480 saving 145 which would buy a nice commem. Double AGW both non CAC options. Investors in the know would spend the 3550 on 2 slabbed 69 AGB apply the change wherever.
But c how guy cry in his beer if 66 Saint does not CAC but ya gotta find willing buyer at that premium make that work - good luck.
Matt - Like it or not, the FACTS demonstrate that collectors (no proof they are informed) are indeed paying that money for those with a CAC. So rather than speculate, I just looked at real hard data. For the 1924 common date Saint, we see that in September 2018 Legend sold one for $3,740. In October 2018, DLRC sold one for $3,850. Also in October 2018 Stack's sold one for $3,600, and in November 2018, Legend's sold one for $3,760. So once again, it's perfectly OK that you and many others may choose to not pay those premiums for one with a CAC, but the fact is, others do choose to, and that's what today's market has become. Coins with CAC's generally sell for premiums (sometimes small), and where coins in a particular grade have a low percentage that merit a CAC, those are indeed selling for larger premiums.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I have only one CAC coin currently and the graysheet price is $600 more because of that little sticker! Crazy, but that's what it says in there... Would I actually get that if I sold? No idea, but that's what it says in there...
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I don't need to "FIND" someone to pay 3500 for a CAC 66 Saint. The live CURRENT HIGH BID is 3625 (with 2 others close behind). I can just ship it with an invoice and it's done.
And I would hope ANY informed collector would pay 3500 for a CAC 66 Saint, when they can turn around and sell it for
3625 today!
Satisfied for the opportunity to learn.
At one point their FAQ said that if the coin failed to get the sticker they were Bluesheet coins, it looks like they changed that.
Don't throw anything but. Can someone tell me just what or why a CAC sticker means. Is it to state that the coin is what it already says it is, or is it just to say, hey this coin is really really nice and therefore needs more dressing. And if so, what are the qualifications based on? Eye Appeal??
The sticker means A or B coin in their opinion C does not get a sticker.
So, a high grade plus appeal not just one but both.
A non CAC Saint in PCGS 66 is worth somewhere around 1850 today.
Nope try $2126 - eBay auc $ 2250 coin facts. CPG shows CAC at $4500 MV I would take 2 Which I pick without CAC double bv / much better, super deal.
But yes the 1850 wb a good buy price on a 66 non cac. Paying about double non CAC on a CAC generic date not a deal for me.
I think some of those cac supporters here should scroll up a bit in this thread and take a peek at the 2 pics of the 1885-CC dollars in MS65PL and tell me how much of a cac premium you'd pay for the one that has the sticker vs. the example that wasn't awarded a sticker? I am however pretty certain this is the only single example in existence where a stickered coin is not clearly a far better example than the non-stickered example and easily worth the big market premium and then some.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@DollarAfterDollar ..
_ If the coin fails to bean I again examine it to learn what I could possibly have missed _
And what have you determined in your misses?
While I’m a CAC supporter, I’m not foolish enough to believe that nearly all CAC coins have better eye appeal than coins not CAC’d. That’s why for my collection as I hunt for upgrades, I pass over plenty of coins with CAC’s in the grade I need, simply because the eye appeal TO ME does not meet my desires.
I’ll address the elephant in the room on the recent comments regarding the price differential of common date 66 Saints of those with and without a CAC. While I fully understand the logic of many/most people not willing to pay that high “premium” for a 66 with a CAC, can someone explain why those already owning a nice 66 Saint without a CAC not being willing to pay only $14.50 (plus shipping) to try to get a CAC on their coin, since if they succeeded, the current market value of their coin would then be well over $1,000 higher? That’s what I have difficulty understanding. Perhaps it has to do with what this original post is all about — disappointment of not getting the CAC, since financially, it seems to make no sense not to spend the few dollars in this specific example. Please help me understand. Thanks.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
There have only been a couple that I was sure would bean but failed to do so. My lazy brain tends to concentrate on eye appeal first, then hits. Strike is to me a harder determination to make. When I'm wrong it's usually because the strike was weak.
CAC not taking submissions from new submitters last I checked.
I like CAC. In fact, I have more bids on CAC coins than even CAC.
Using the 66 Saint (motto) as an example, the high bid is 3625, that's me. A non stickered coin goes for 1900 or so. PCGS and NGC has graded 42,000 MS66 Saints, CAC has approved 2,200. There is exactly $1725 worth of incentives per coin to submit all the coins to CAC.
I highly encourage everyone, while at a large show, to look very closely at 4 or 5 MS66 CAC Saints(you won't find that many), and compare them to the hundreds (yes there's plenty) of non stickered MS66 coins and you WILL see a noticeable difference in quality. If you didnt like any of the MS66's for $1900 but do not want to shell out $12,000 for a MS67, perhaps a PCGS MS66 CAC coin for under $4,000 is an option, thats what it is, an option.
If you even think the quality is close between the non sticker MS66 Saint and the stickered one, then you have 40,000 Saint to examine and please send me your PCGS MS66 Saints once you get stickers on them, I really love them as they are quite stunning. You will make $1725 a coin. I need a few dozen, and pay by wire transfer. Please.
One then finds someone (perhaps your favorite dealer) to submit it for you.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
None of these are CAC'ed and I have no plans on ever sending them in.
(yes they are all 66 or 66+ commons)
My Saint Set
They must have found something NGC missed and we can't see.
Yes, I fully agree those are lovely coins. However, you completely ignored the question of why not pay $14.50 for those coins to try to get a CAC, since if you succeed, the current market value would then be well over $1,000 higher for each one that gets the CAC???? Obviously, you’re keeping it in the 66 slab to “maintain value”. Why not spend $14.50 to increase the value quite significantly?
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Yeah.....that must be it, LOLOL. I think CAC has a bridge they want to sell you.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
I once bought an expensive Hawaii cent in a PCGS holder that had the portrait outlined ( well done engraving job). PCGS bought it back. Grading services make mistakes and if I were a grading guru like you I would never have had a detail coin returned. It would depend how much they want for the bridge.
You must sell that coin immediately! Dispose of it promptly. Email me with your price I will dispatch it promptly.
I seek only to help you with the offending disk.
I agree, to the untrained eye the strike is harder to see than the hits. The coin that cac'd (above) has crispier looking details albeit all banged up it still has a higher looking resolution in the grain on her face. Looks more like Roman slate than Mayan crete
so let me understand those who have an issue with CAC and stickering MS-66 St Gaudens. CAC is a service who:
1) for the price of $14.50 will review a St Gaudens MS-66 and if it stickers will nearly double your money but if it doesn't you lose no value
2) further if it doesn't sticker, that information is not revealed
3) for the price of the $14.50 you have one of the best trained eyes view your coin and will explain why it didn't sticker if that is the case (imagine only having to pay a PGA tour pro $14.50 to look at your swing and give advice)
4) for those who think they are superior graders, they have an instant advantage to find unstickered coins at non cac prices and if their grading abilities are what they think they are get those coins stickered and be rewarded for their skill
5) for those who are not skilled graders you have an option (only if you want) to purchase CAC coins that had been viewed by a superior grader who not only feels the coin is solid for the grade but also feels it has not been doctored.
Hard to understand the problem here.
It works if you can find a buyer at the higher CAC price. And on big ticket material why not.
I don’t have issue stickering certainly if higher CAC bid value (CDN) justifies the expense. Conversely paying double the money for a coin simply bc its CAC and even more expensive than its plus grade just not a deal for me. However - this is an area for the wealthy to play in its their hobby. Sort of like my more expensive yacht in GTAO which has hot-tub and extra helipad.
Those are just incredible!
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