Population reports = frustration
dennis1219
Posts: 267 ✭✭✭
Do you find it frustrating, when searching for the lower pop coins, to compare the two leading grading services?
For example, 1999W $10 Gold Eagle Proof. NGC has graded 2167 and nearly 40% graded perfect. PCGS had graded 3440 and only about 10% graded perfect.
I guess my question is... Do you think that one grading service with lower standards affects another grading service when looking for top pop coins?
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res ipsa loquitur
I doubt you'll get an unbiased opinion here or on the other TPG's forum.
I don’t as the prices for PCGS and ATS can vary widely.
Uhhhhhh Ohhhhhh
I love ❤️PCGS.
Reality is that there is no meaningful "standard" even for something as seemingly simple as "MS-70." Thus, you cannot compare one TPG against another, or go so far as to compare any TPG to itself over time.
Your time might be better used in developing a way to store electricity w/o bulky batteries - or possibly superconducting electrical transmission lines.
Not sure your question, but when I talk about a top pop PCGS Lincoln (for example) that I own, I have no idea what the NGC pops are because they are not comparable IMHO. Look at auction prices realized and you will see the difference...
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
You really can't tell anything from pop of moderns because you can't know what bulk submitters are using as standards.
But, more importantly, when it comes to moderns there are clear price differences between services. That tells you all you need to know.
And, personally, no offense intended but I wouldnt spend more than 30 seconds looking for modern condition rarities. How many of those coins have gone up in price 5 years after issue?
Reality is: THERE IS A STANDARD FOR MS/PR-70! IT IS NOT ALWAYS FOLLOWED for various reasons PERIOD! And, thank you very much.
Off to brunch but will return for comment.
PS As for pop reports, we can easily find examples of over graded and correctly graded examples in any series.
RE: "Reality is: THERE IS A STANDARD FOR MS/PR-70! IT IS NOT ALWAYS FOLLOWED for various reasons PERIOD! And, thank you very much"
A "standard" that is not an observed "standard" is not a "standard" -- it is bologna ! Bologna sliced with "various reasons" is still bologna - just with more surface exposed to rot.
Hoping your brunch is better than "standard bologna."
Percentages and "graded" numbers you are quoting above are meaningless. Hundreds, or in your example, maybe even a few thousand were actually sent in and graded, but not slabbed 70. If they are not slabbed, they do not show up in the population reports so your "graded" numbers are too low. It saves bulk submitters a bit of money to say only slab the coins, if they are 70's.
Not all 70's are the same. Best to look only at the coins, not the slab, label, etc.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
From what I’ve seen, even PCGS 70s for ultra moderns may not have much premium. It’s the PCGS 70 First Strike coins that have a premium. They need to be 70 and First Strike.
....
and -- since "first striken" ("just off the boat;" "Top o' the Bag, etc.") as no meaning in relation to coin quality or order of manufacture, the premium is hot air that will never be recoverable.
What boat was taken to get to "Gullible's Island" so quickly?
They need to be 70 and First Strike.
Actually in the Modern area I find MS70's are where the largest premiums and lowest pops exist, and most of them are not First Strike.
Modern Proofs I agree there may be a premium for FS 70's. However FS is a bit of a misnomer, as really it is just the first 30 days stamped on a shipping box.
It is completely illogical, but I collect them anyway. LOL
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
I would pick one company and ride that horse.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Your reply leads to this question: How many people need to ignore a "standard" before it is no longer a standard?
It is STANDARD to stop at a red light. That's the law - the standard. People don't always stop at the red light for MANY REASONS. That does not change anything. The STANDARD (Stop at a red light) still exists. I had to make it really simple using this example to show that a standard does not change yet folks can ignore it so other folks can claim There is no standard. Clear enough now?
PS Perhaps, you
should get out more. 
@Insider2.... I respectfully disagree... There are NO standards, for '70' or any other grade.... A standard is a defined measurement that is defined and repeatable. In numismatics there are no REAL standards. I challenge you to show me your standard... but before you do, make sure it truly is a standard, and not some agreed upon generality supported by general opinions. Cheers, RickO
Actually, I'd rather own a true to my standards MS/PR-70 "First Strike" than a 70 w/no modifiers. As to additional value, who knows? I'll agree that most of it is hype.
Et tu Ricko? LOL.
Although there are published and imaged "suggestions" for each grade There actually are to Places where the line is strictly defined. Mint State = No trace of friction wear, and 70 (perfect). Everything else is subjective.
I have seen Perfect coins and MS coins so they exist. If the industry, an individual, or a company wishes to fudge the line so be it. The line of demarcation is still there - unchanged over time. To say it does not exist in the market is an observable fact. To claim it is not really there is nonsense.
I think the three of us understand what we are posting about.
@Insider2.... And yet you will have debates about whether there is wear present.. and many who look at 70 coins believe they see minor flaws (very minor).....I do understand what you are saying... and I believe the TPG's are doing their level best with what has been generally agreed upon. That being said, until real standards (size of defects, quantity of defects, location of defects, etc...) are established, and likely artificial intelligence employed with computer grading, we will always have conflicting opinions, crackouts, upgrades and downgrades. That is reality. Cheers, RickO
The last time I looked - about a month ago - , according to the published standards of PCGS and NGC, neither required that a coin be “perfect” in order to be graded 70.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.