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WA State to propose removing tax exemption on bullion.

LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

Read it in paper this AM ....... anyone here involved with ICTA??

"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.

Comments

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Coin next?

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2019 11:52AM

    Sounds like WA is looking for another revenue stream.

    More info:

    Coin Dealers Brace As States Begin Implementing Sales Tax Collections
    March 1, 2019

    http://blog.greysheet.com/coin-dealers-brace-as-states-begin-implementing-sales-tax-collections/

    Edit to add: Proposal - SENATE BILL 5658

    AN ACT Relating to eliminating tax preferences for bullion; creating a new section; repealing RCW 82.04.062; and providing an effective date.

    BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:

    NEW SECTION.
    Sec. 1. RCW 82.04.062 ("Sale at wholesale," "sale at retail" excludes sale of precious metal bullion and monetized bullion—Computation of tax) and 1985 c 471 s 5 are each repealed.

    NEW SECTION.
    Sec. 2. The repeal in section 1 of this act does not affect any existing right acquired or liability or obligation incurred under the statute repealed or under any rule or order adopted under that statute nor does it affect any proceeding instituted under the repealed statute.

    NEW SECTION.
    Sec. 3. This act takes effect October 1, 2019.

    --- END ---

    S-0578.2

    SENATE BILL 5658
    State of Washington 66th Legislature 2019 Regular Session By Senators Hunt, Nguyen, Hasegawa, Saldaña, and Frockt
    Read first time 01/25/19. Referred to Committee on Ways & Means.

    http://lawfilesext.leg.wa.gov/biennium/2019-20/Pdf/Bills/Senate Bills/5658.pdf

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2019 11:46AM

    It might be good for coin dealers.

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the additional details - appreciated. Glad ICTA is already involved - I should have known..... :D

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Please refresh my memory -- what is special or different about gold bullion vs chicken bouillon ?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Please refresh my memory -- what is special or different about gold bullion vs chicken bouillon ?

    For gold bullion, the exception would be based on gold as an investment vehicle.

    What should not have an exception are collector coins. That is a straight hobby, no different than sports cards or beanie babies.

  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭✭✭

    One could also make an argument from the perspective of gold as money.

    We aren't taxed when we buy euro or pounds or Japanese yen.

    Higashiyama
  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Please refresh my memory -- what is special or different about gold bullion vs chicken bouillon ?

    “o”

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @RogerB said:
    Please refresh my memory -- what is special or different about gold bullion vs chicken bouillon ?

    For gold bullion, the exception would be based on gold as an investment vehicle.

    What should not have an exception are collector coins. That is a straight hobby, no different than sports cards or beanie babies.

    Big difference. You can't spend Beanie Babies. Coins are legal tender.

    thefinn
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thefinn said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @RogerB said:
    Please refresh my memory -- what is special or different about gold bullion vs chicken bouillon ?

    For gold bullion, the exception would be based on gold as an investment vehicle.

    What should not have an exception are collector coins. That is a straight hobby, no different than sports cards or beanie babies.

    Big difference. You can't spend Beanie Babies. Coins are legal tender.

    Then the tax exemption should only apply to the face value of the coin. The "numismatic value" is no different than the "collectible value" of trading cards or beanie babies.

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @thefinn said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @RogerB said:
    Please refresh my memory -- what is special or different about gold bullion vs chicken bouillon ?

    For gold bullion, the exception would be based on gold as an investment vehicle.

    What should not have an exception are collector coins. That is a straight hobby, no different than sports cards or beanie babies.

    Big difference. You can't spend Beanie Babies. Coins are legal tender.

    Then the tax exemption should only apply to the face value of the coin. The "numismatic value" is no different than the "collectible value" of trading cards or beanie babies.

    There you go.

    thefinn
  • ChrisH821ChrisH821 Posts: 6,292 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    And if you don't know the difference between gold bullion and chicken bullion, i'm not eating at your house. Although I will gladly take home a bowl of soup.

    @Aspie_Rocco I feel like this should make the list.

    Collector, occasional seller

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2019 3:00PM

    Is this a fair summary of the above comments? ---

    Sales tax should not apply to the legal tender value of an item, but only to the premium, if any. Metal bullion (or chicken bullion) is a non-monetary investment and should not be taxed. (The bullion question then becomes one of "investment" vs "non-investment," and not simply the physical nature of bullion.)

    I know several chefs who might not consider "chicken bullion" a legitimate food product.... :)

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Please refresh my memory -- what is special or different about gold bullion vs chicken bouillon ?

    one is money the other is chicken. Bullion investments should be no different that stocks and bonds. . . no sales tax.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • DotStoreDotStore Posts: 701 ✭✭✭✭

    Is this why alot of dealers on eBay list their coins under "Bullion" (avoiding taxes)? It always irritates me when the listing is under "Bullion" because my eBay coupons usually don't work on Bullion (and/or there's usually no eBay Bucks awarded for Bullion purchases).

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @DotStore said:
    Is this why alot of dealers on eBay list their coins under "Bullion" (avoiding taxes)? It always irritates me when the listing is under "Bullion" because my eBay coupons usually don't work on Bullion (and/or there's usually no eBay Bucks awarded for Bullion purchases).

    No. Tax entities have their own definitions not related to ebay category. The Ebay fee structure is likely different for bullion dealers.

  • KellenCoinKellenCoin Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭

    The PNNA has taken steps to start combating this bill. I suggest you get in contact with them to see what you can do to help.

    YN Member of the ANA, ANS, NBS, EAC, C4, MCA, PNNA, CSNS, ILNA, TEC, and more!
    Always buying numismatic literature and sample slabs.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    It might be good for coin dealers.

    Serious question, Why might this WA proposal, if passed, be good for coin dealers?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldminers said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    It might be good for coin dealers.

    Serious question, Why might this WA proposal, if passed, be good for coin dealers?

    Because dealers have resale certificates. Currently, a flipping collector can buy a coin and flip it the next day to another collector via eBay and maybe lose 10%. Add 8% sales tax and they lose 18% or possibly 26% if both sales are taxed. But the dealer can buy it without sales tax which gives them a competitive advantage by limiting the number of times that a sales tax is paid on a coin flip.

    An 8% sales tax might drop the coin prices by 8% to adjust for the tax, at least in the short term. But I really don't care what the sell price is. I care what the buy/sell spread is.

    Frankly, you've got people playing dealer on eBay and BST that might well be avoiding taxes they should be paying, including income tax and sales tax. That competitive advantage decreases when everyone is forced to pay the taxes.

    [And yes, I know I'm going to get flamed for saying it. But I'm not saying taxes are good. I'm an anarchist at heart. But tax avoidance is a competitive disadvantage to those that are actually paying taxes.]

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Guess a sales tax is better than a tax on the gains, which could lead to a WA state income tax, which is a bigger can of worms?

    Bottom line is, it's so much easier to spend someone else money that the tax increases will never end.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Goldminers said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    It might be good for coin dealers.

    Serious question, Why might this WA proposal, if passed, be good for coin dealers?

    If you want to do it with numbers. Say Collector (C) and Dealer (D) are both going to buy a coin from STack's and flip the coin on eBay. C, by definition, has no resale certificate.

    C bids $80 and pays $108 to Stack's. C sells on eBay and eBay collects the sales tax for him. The buyer pays $108 to eBay but C only $90.

    D bids $80 and pays $100 to STacks. D sells on eBay ane eBay collects the sales tax for him. Buyer pays $108, D gets $90. Even better, D can bid up to $88 and still only pay the same $108 that C pays for the coin making it easier for the D to win coins.

    D can can probably pay the C $90 that C's getting from eBay (net) and still flip it to a wholesaler for a couple dollar profit.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This still might be better than a state income tax.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    This still might be better than a state income tax.

    Frankly, I would prefer a VAT to income taxes and even property taxes. I can control what I spend if I have to.

  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Lakesammman said:

    Bottom line is, it's so much easier to spend someone else money that the tax increases will never end.

    And, that's the issue....they keep wanting to spend spend spend, because it really isn't their money and there is really NO accountability, in this state. Elections go 1 way and 1 way only. So, accountability is out the door.

    I'm surprised they waited this long to go after it.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I lived in WA state for twenty years.... and now, eleven years after leaving, and talking to my friends still there, I can barely recognize it as the state I remember. Particularly the urban area of Seattle....such a shame. Brace yourself Washington... taxes will only go up and I can see a state income tax coming....Cheers, RickO

  • NysotoNysoto Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sounds like WA is looking for another revenue stream.

    WA state is also proposing a 9% capital gains tax (Bezos will love that), and other taxes and fees. The WA state governor's run for president, safe heroin injection sites, and other social improvements will require more taxpayer dollars.

    Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Nysoto said:

    Sounds like WA is looking for another revenue stream.

    WA state is also proposing a 9% capital gains tax (Bezos will love that), and other taxes and fees. The WA state governor's run for president, safe heroin injection sites, and other social improvements will require more taxpayer dollars.

    Wow! And not the good wow. :/

  • metalmeistermetalmeister Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I miss the old days.

    email: ccacollectibles@yahoo.com

    100% Positive BST transactions
  • coinpalicecoinpalice Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭

    just be glad we had it nice at one time, young people will never see good times

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 5,758 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2019 12:15PM

    Are there any 'big' bullion dealers based in Washington, or is it mostly coin and jewelry dealers selling bullion within the state? Are they anticipating the collection of state taxes from the likes of AMPEX shipping to Washington?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 31,613 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cameonut said:
    When are all you guys going to realize that we are taxed too much already?
    The goobermint monster needs to be put on a diet at all levels.

    When a new tax is proposed, it is simply a way to feed the monster and allow it to grow even bigger.

    If each of us actually wrote a check to the goobermint every pay day (no automatic withholding allowed), we would have a tax revolution on our hands in a month or two.

    Rant over.

    all which guys? No one is desiring new taxes

  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,873 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Out of respect for my fellow forum members I'll keep my political comments off site.
    I'm just here for the chicken jokes.

  • batumibatumi Posts: 796 ✭✭✭✭

    @davewesen said:
    This still might be better than a state income tax.

    With the 'Progressives' running the place, Washington will get an income tax.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,578 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .> @davewesen said:

    Are there any 'big' bullion dealers based in Washington, or is it mostly coin and jewelry dealers selling bullion within the state? Are they anticipating the collection of state taxes from the likes of AMPEX shipping to Washington?

    Apmex already collects WA state sales tax on online orders from WA.

  • WHPRATTWHPRATT Posts: 114 ✭✭✭

    Time to move!

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2019 7:29PM

    Washington, particularly Seattle, is an utter mess. Loonies running the nuthouse. Drifting fast toward nirvana, er... I mean, socialism. Shameful, really.

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pretty soon there won’t be any good places to move to.

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