When a grading co. cannot confirm authenticity
zski123
Posts: 256 ✭✭✭
Just wondering what the process looks like when a grading company cannot confirm authenticity? I have on occasion received my coin back with that indication. Its a bummer especially if the item was purchased at auction and the auctioneer is insisting it is authentic. Tough to make a legal case that is it not authentic.
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Prior to taking any action you'll need to try a second grading company.
I have not had that problem... however, I would think the grading company's decision should weigh heavily in your favor for a refund. Cheers, RickO
I may be wrong, but I believe "Questionable Authenticity" is the classification they have used when the coin may be an authentic coin, but is perhaps modified by adding a mintmark or some such thing. My one Questionable Authenticity result was a 1909-S Indian that had an added mintmark.
Edit: Here's the thread I started on that coin way back when - https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/802736/my-first-questionable-authenticity-submission-1909-s-indian
Great thread. Bumped it for further reading and study. Thanks @ModCrewman!
Interesting. I would think the "Questionable Authenticity" designation would not be due to something such as adding a mint mark. If the mint mark was added, the coin is clearly not authentic as submitted. They may be questioning whether or not the mint mark was added then?
You dump the coin.
Like I did with my ancient gold stater once I found out that NGC does NOT guarantee ...authenticity.
PHOOEY!
Questionable Authenticity: Weasel way to tell someone that in the opinion of the TPGS the coin is altered or not genuine.
Counterfeit/Altered: The old way to pass on the bad news.
No decision: The opinions of the folks and possibly the consultants it was sent to are either divided (genuine/not genuine) or we are unable to come to a decision one way or the other that we can stand behind 100%.
There are uncountable times "No Decision" has been used in the past. Part of this is because the TPGS do not hold coins as long as they did in the 1970's. Think of this. A coin is either genuine or not. If there is no time limit imposed, in most cases the correct answer can be found and the knowledge of the authenticator's is expanded. In several cases in the past (with no time limit) it turned out that the opinion of one out of many authenticators/dealers/consultants turned out to be the correct opinion.
Without the due process given to authentication in the past, many counterfeits have slipped into the marketplace until they were discovered. Luckily, most coins authenticated by a dozen eyes inside a TPGS are checked by thousands of eyes later.
I always thought 'questionable authenticity' was fake, 'altered' included added mintmark, and 'no decision - refund' was damaged or worn so bad they could not decide if real or fake.
When I saw the thread title, I thought of a coin similar to a 1799 cent in low grade that was very heavily corroded. How is it possible to authenticate such a coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Be glad you don't need to. I've seen three such pieces this month. Two were 1798's. The large die breaks on the reverse made it very easy in those cases. The other went to a major Large cent dealer just to confirm our opinion that it was genuine.
PS Last month we sent one back with no decision. Since the state-of-the-art extremely deceptive fake Large cents came out years ago it is even more difficult as now the coins are being corroded to make them even more deceptive!!
The 1909-S Indian mentioned in this thread was also low grade. That would not stop someone from altering the coin, as it still has worth above the coin it was altered from.
Bummer indeed!
Pete
BuffaloIronTail: A low grade 1909-s indian cent would arouse my suspicion of being counterfeit or altered just by being a low grade. Not trying to say genuine low grade 1909-s cents don't exist-they do-I would take a harder look at them.
I have had both PCGS and NGC return items as "Unable to Verify Authenticity" in the past 15 years. to me it means that they believe the items are genuine but some characteristic(s) have them stopping short of deeming them genuine. I am OK with that.
Great topic! And the original thread to boot. I learned something important and I haven't finished my first cup of coffee. And good morning to all. Peace Roy
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Really? I didn't know that at ngc. I have a problem with that. Afaik our host does and I know JA will buy any coin he stickers. Can any one confirm our host's guaranty?
“If the grade determined under such "Guarantee Resubmission" procedures is lower than the grade originally assigned to the coin, or if the coin is found to be misattributed or non-authentic, PCGS shall pay the current market value for the coin in question at the originally assigned grade (in which case, PCGS shall become the owner of the coin), or at the owner of the coin's option, the difference between the current market value for the coin in question at the newly established grade and the current market value of the coin in question at the grade originally assigned (in which case, the coin at the newly established grade will be returned to the owner). PCGS will also refund the regrading fee and postage and insurance costs incurred by the coin owner in sending the coin to PCGS.”
https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee
Like I did with my ancient gold stater once I found out that NGC does NOT guarantee ...authenticity.
taken from the NGC website:
--- Subject to the terms and conditions of this Guarantee and the limitations specified below, NGC guarantees that:
All US and world coins, tokens and medals (which are collectively referred to as “Coins” in this Guarantee) graded by NGC and encapsulated in an NGC holder are guaranteed to be genuine.
All Coins are guaranteed not to be overgraded, meaning that they are not graded higher than NGC’s grading standards.
Note: The grade guarantee does not apply to NGC Details-graded Coins, which are guaranteed to be genuine only.
In addition, NGC guarantees that NGC “Authentic Hand-Signed” labels have a genuine autograph from the person identified on the NGC label.
you can draw your own conclusion from the above about what NGC guarantees when they encapsulate a coin.
Thanks @Hemispherical, that's good enough for me.
J
Not so fast.... The wiggle room in the PCGS Guarantee is the "mechanical error". I had this come up with a coin I purchased, an 1860 Farthing Toothed - Beaded Border. It was slabbed MS63 which made it the 2nd finest known. It was purchased in an online auction so I could not examine the coin closely other than the pictures provided. I was thrilled to get it. Later found out that it was not the rare variety. PCGS called it a Mechanical Error and promptly removed it. They would only re-grade the coin with correct attribution which is a far cry from what I paid. Below is the out clause from the guarantee.
_**Clerical or "mechanical" errors. PCGS occasionally makes clerical errors in inputting data which is shown on the insert in the PCGS holder; consequently the PCGS Guarantee does not cover obvious clerical errors, what we call "mechanical errors." The key concept is how obvious the error is to the naked eye. If you can easily tell just by looking at the coin that the description on the holder is wrong, then the coin/holder combination is not covered by the PCGS Guarantee. **_
As someone who used to have the final “genuine/ not genuine/ no decision” say on some coins, let me tell you that someone willing to say “I don’t know” now and then is more trustworthy than someone who feels compelled to make a decision they are not legitimately sure of.
IMHO It's possible from the narrative the submission in question was misidentified. Our host did the right thing.
It happens a lot with world coins...especially China. Send to the other guys and it gets graded many times.
Let me clarify the NGC ...guarantee... on ANCIENTS
"NGC Ancients is committed to grading only genuine coins, but it does not guarantee authenticity, genuineness or attribution, nor is any guarantee of these aspects implied. NGC Ancients will only holder coins it considers genuine at the time of submission, but it cannot guarantee the authenticity, genuineness, type, attribution or date of any coin it holders. Unlike modern coins, which often benefit from well-documented, scientific parameters for the verification of authenticity, there rarely is conclusive data for ancient coins, and generally there is no surviving documentation to verify production characteristics."
https://www.ngccoin.com/specialty-services/ancient-coins/guarantee.aspx
That's unfortunate. In my limited experience it is rare to find counterfeit or altered coins in grades lower than VF.
There are many reasons to use the No Decision option. As Tom posted, we should be thankful everything is not just put in a holder on a whim. IMO, too many coins have been certified as genuine without the diligence of coin authenticator's in the 70's or relying on the opinions of outside consultants. As a result TPGS have been badly "burned" before.
@zski123 said: "Not so fast.... The wiggle room in the PCGS Guarantee is the "mechanical error". I had this come up with a coin I purchased, an 1860 Farthing Toothed - Beaded Border. It was slabbed MS63 which made it the 2nd finest known. It was purchased in an online auction so I could not examine the coin closely other than the pictures provided. I was thrilled to get it. Later found out that it was not the rare variety. PCGS called it a Mechanical Error and promptly removed it. They would only re-grade the coin with correct attribution which is a far cry from what I paid. Below is the out clause from the guarantee.
Clerical or "mechanical" errors. PCGS occasionally makes clerical errors in inputting data which is shown on the insert in the PCGS holder; consequently the PCGS Guarantee does not cover obvious clerical errors, what we call "mechanical errors." The key concept is how obvious the error is to the naked eye. If you can easily tell just by looking at the coin that the description on the holder is wrong, then the coin/holder combination is not covered by the PCGS Guarantee.
It should be obvious that the TPGS's do everything they can to put out an accurately graded and genuine product. In spite of this, big flubs do occur - some possibly think more than they should - but mistakes can and do happen. For example, at one grading service the rare coins are the first on the label list. Unfortunately, if there is inattention logging the coin in every 1853 is the valuable no arrows variety when it reaches the graders! On a common coin such as this, someone grading the coin will often punch in their grade w/o even checking the description. Once or twice an error such as this has reached the final check before shipment! In a thousand coins, I probably change over three hundred because the variety. date, etc is incorrect! Unfortunately, I'm not perfect and two to three times a week I become the brunt of the jokes; "This 1921 is a Peace dollar not a Morgan! Did you have your coffee this morning?' The 1860 farthing above is another good example. Most collectors/dealers and even graders would consider it a regular coin. In this case I'm familiar with the variety. That's where the knowledge comes in.
And finally, let's take an example that I'll bet has occurred at a TPGS sometime for sure. In the 3CN Series, Mint State 1883 to 1885 coins are valued around 3K to 6K in the Redbook. The Proofs are $400. Let's say the TPGS slabs one of the Proofs as MS **EITHER BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY AGREED IT WAS A MINT STATE COIN or because it was overlooked and slipped out graded as the valuable mint state coin. If you think you are going to be compensated under a guarantee... You see, it was a simple "Mechanical Error."
The actual coin in the slab is the only important part of the plastic tomb.
@Insider2 "The actual coin in the slab is the only important part of the plastic tomb." I think most would agree with the statement but mistakes do happen. In my case, the mistake was not obvious such as a wrong date or other example. My example was an 1860 Toothed / Beaded Farthing which was slabbed as such. In the day and age of online transactions, it would be a little tough to pick up on it viewing a photo.
I don't know the answer but I do know that the $700 I paid is about $650 too much for that coin. The free re-holdering locks in my loss. It has more value as a novelty piece quite frankly. In some ways, the guarantee along with the mechanical error clause can cast doubts when larger sums of money are on the table.
I am not fussing at you! You bought the label because the rim was not obvious. As soon as you noticed the error you should have returned the coin to the seller. No need for you to deal with it. However, if the coin was bought as-is. You are probably out of luck. "Mechanical Error" covers the label caused by whatever caused the error. Therefore PCGS owes you nothing.
You have two options and PCGS has two options. You have posted one of yours and they have posted one of theirs. I know what each of you should do if I ran the world.
I agree with the above. However, in generalizing the problem, if we can not buy with assuredness then that is a problem. Although I have no doubt mechanical errors occur, I think this has been used retrospectively as a reason/excuse perhaps too commonly. The mule just mentioned was submitted as an acknowledged rarity that would require fastidious treatment, so somewhat less of an excuse for mechanical errors. Also, the differentiation of the Toothed versus Beading requires extra time even for an expert because of transitional types - not a slam dunk.
I was told that with regards to grade on a relatively rare British coin and then politely browbeat them just a bit, and low and behold the coin came back graded 5 points higher (58 to 63 made a huge difference with this coin).
Well, just Love coins, period.
I didn't suggest your were "fussing at me". I'm simply stating that the Mechanical error is a way out of the guarantee and would almost certainly be used in cases like mine. The auctioneer wasn't going to accept the return and why should they? It's not like it was a forgery. @7Jaguars has it right. A rarity such as this would have had an appropriate degree of scrutiny. I just think they missed this one.
@zski123 said: "I didn't suggest your were "fussing at me". I'm simply stating that the Mechanical error is a way out of the guarantee and would almost certainly be used in cases like mine. The auctioneer wasn't going to accept the return and why should they? It's not like it was a forgery. @7Jaguars has it right. A rarity such as this would have had an appropriate degree of scrutiny. I just think they missed this one.
...and unfortunately, that was one of the possibilities I mentioned. I wonder what the published policy of the auction house is in a case like this. I wonder what the law says they are required to do. What if a counterfeit in a slab is sold - that would be the next thing close to your situation. Did you even contact the auction house about this? That is important to know in order to continue this thread.
The law is clear when an auction house knowingly sells an item (coin, painting, watch, etc) that is not genuine and not marked as such. It's illegal but this isn't a counterfeit item. Yes I did contact them. No return on this item given it was not their mistake. The blame goes to the TPGS and the loss goes to me.
Too bad you don't have deep pockets. If that no return policy is not stated somewhere I'll bet you could unwind the transaction.