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Can you condone dipping and also oppose artificial toning.
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
Seems that the goal of both is to add value to a coin.
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Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
Coinstartled
Posts: 10,135 ✭✭✭✭✭
Comments
No. I do not condone either option.
It is an area that I would not enter. I do not dip my coins
Edit: I do not like the idea of artificially toned coins either.
In my opinion, dipping is a surface alteration kind of close to AT, in that the surface is being intentionally manipulated to enhance the appearance.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
people do, all the time. whether it makes sense,......
some might conclude that dipping in some instances can preserve the coin. that's not the same for AT
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Yes. Dipping can help preserve a coin when done correctly. Artificially toning a coin many times is done to help hide issues. Both can increase values of the coin but one does it in a positive manner and the other is deception. There are other things that people do to coins to try and increase the value as well.
Well, you COULD condone dipping while opposing AT because
1. Dipping removes a foreign substance
2. AT adds a foreign substance
It is actually logically consistent.
I have no problem dipping silver bullion. Raw collectible coins,no.
Question here for me is whether or not coin restoration qualifies as doctoring a coin?
And also dissolves a bit of metal.
As dipping is introducing a foreign chemical it seems like it should be disclosed on the holder or when selling a raw coin. Preserving or restoring a coin is cleaning , albeit a market acceptable method which I believe should be disclosed to buyers.
It reminds me of the fine line that THC concentrates flirt with. A thc concentrate (hash, pressed tricombs, bubble hash) is legal in most states with recreational or medical MJ.
When a Chemical (butane, for example) is used during processing or creation of a concentrate the end product (BHO, shatter, wax) is technically a felony in most of the same states.
Once a chemical is introduced the rules of the “game” change.
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
I have no problem dipping any toned coins (artificial or not). At least they look closer to MS then. A lightly dipped coin looks so much better than a toned one. However, hash dipping/cleaning can be worse than having a toned coin. Maybe.....
Perhaps I was not potty trained correctly because I love cleaning everything! I'd clean
anything I could get my hands on.
This is the type of crud I'd take off a coin without even asking. I just cannot help myself. (
with all due respect, as I love your posts. 1. is not fully right.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
The foreign substance (dip) used to remove the toning is rinsed away so there is no foreign substance remaining at the end of the process.
That said, I was just pointing out that it was logically consistent. Personally, I'm not morally opposed to either process. In the end, the coin is what it is and looks like it looks. You either love it or hate it. It is SOOOO common in archaelogy to "curate" artifacts that it is really hard to be against any kind of surface treatment. In my ever humble opinion.
I don't know. I have never done either and have no intentions of trying these out. Thanks for your post.
Okay. I see what you mean. I wonder, can someone masterful enough dip an AT coin to remove the chemicals used without removing the toning?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
While I’m not a fan of dipping coins, it can result in revealing flaws that would not otherwise be apparent. On the other hand, artificially toning coins can hide flaws that would otherwise be apparent.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
t is done to remove toning that is ugly/causes the coin to be less valuable. People love blast white morgans, for example. This is destroying the originality of the coin for profit (in same fashion as AT).
Done correctly, AT coins should not have any chemicals left. The toning is a compound formed by reaction with the surface so it is, if you will, bonded to the surface. The chemicals used to do it are NOT bonded to the surface and can be washed away. Museums do this all the time. The Central America people do this all the time. They rarely leave the surface contaminated with chemicals. But they are careful experts.
In this instance, then, where chemicals are not left on the coin -> AT == dipping. Both are performed unnaturally to increase the eye appeal of the coin.
Would that be a fair conclusion?
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
@MFeld said: "...On the other hand, artificially toning coins can hide flaws that would otherwise be apparent."
Amen. When you buy beautifully toned coins be aware that in many cases its "technical grade" (if it were brilliant original MS) is often 1, 2, or even occasionally 3 MS grades LOWER!
Archaeology, eh? I do recall reading tutorials intended for the metal detecting crowd, along with seeing chemicals used for (“artificial”) toning sold openly, online. I was amazed. What is this “curation” all about, briefly?
I can’t get behind deliberate toning for the purpose of boosting resale value... but conservation of some toned surfaces seems entirely legitimate. It’s okay to restore something that was harmed by poor storage conditions.
I condone dipping only when there is an active contaminant that would result in damage of the surface of the coin.
I do not condone artificial toning of any kind.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
This is a good question. I only dipped coins I've purchased if they were uncirculated, and if they had toning which I thought was distracting, or, getting close to going terminal. I only do this rarely, and not habit, as I prefer natural look vs blast white. I have never dipped a coin in my collection for resale.
Toning is same scenario. I have a 1843 half dollar that is AU condition. More than likely has been lightly cleaned, PL surfaces, album toned; but I feel it needs a bit more umph to push her over the cliff. Not for resale; just for me.
I'd guess this is more about the motive, and intent. Not looking to profit; yet, want a nice looking collection. I suppose if I mess up with either process- my underling heirs can gripe. Sometimes you got to push it to 11 to get best results!
Yes.
In my mind, the purpose of dipping is to remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. It is an unfortunate side effect that it also removes some non contaminants and alters the surface. Artificial tonining intentionally introduces contaminants to the coins surface. While dipping is done to many coins that have no business being dipped, I believe when done properly (for example removing haze from a proof coin) it can improve the coin.
I like natural and that includes dirty and ugly.
Dipping gets a bad reputation unfairly. There are coins for which dipping can be appropriate and beneficial. But for most coins it's not beneficial. So people make a blanket recommendation to not dip. It's a safe recommendation and will keep coins from getting unnecessarily damaged.
Dipping is ultimately a more specific form of the cleaning vs conservation distinction. In many cases conservation is just cleaning. Albeit, the cleaning is performed by a knowledgeable and skilled person in the right situation with the appropriate methods. The general recommendation is to not clean coins, and that's good because it avoids unnecessarily damaging coins at the hands of the unskilled/uneducated.
I make similar arguments about lacquering (applying a synthetic coating for preservation purposes).
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"Numismatic categorizations, if left unconstrained, will increase spontaneously over time." -me
The term 'dipping' covers a multitude of options. For example, dipping in acetone will NOT remove tarnish and will NOT affect the metal surface. It WILL remove organic contamination and benefit the appearance of the coin. Now, there are also substances that will remove tarnish and affect the metal surface - that is an entirely different form of dipping. Do not confuse the two.... Cheers, RickO
There are times when dipping is appropriate IMHO.
Wish I had some pictures. 10 or 15 years ago I purchased a Seated Dollar at a show. The coin looked pitted. It was sold to me as a pitted coin. When I got home I started studying it closely. I'm like hmmmm…..this might be some of the craziest toning I had ever seen. It was really hard to tell even with a strong loupe. I guess the best way to describe the coin is it looked like it had a light layer of pepper all over it. I had nothing to lose so I dipped it and ended up with a really nice lustrous AU coin!
So how many here would have dipped that coin?
Yes
Dipping / restoration a necessary part of coin conservation. Great for removing surface haze. Truly original coins are as pristine as the day they left the mint. However I would not dip an attractive toner. Each case has to be analyzed on its own situation possibly sent to professional. Reaction to the atmosphere is a fact I want to churn my inventory quickly.
What really burns me up are stupid people that put price stickers, etc that leave residue on Holder that can’t be removed especially if close to where coin is on Holder or get scratches on Holder from careless handling.
I don’t condone AT.
dipping is technically cleaning and although it sounds antithetical to opposing AT, it is my stance.
I have dipped modern proof coins to get rid of the haze that forms on some. In my eyes it is only removing something that should not be on the surface of a non circulating coin. I do not tone and don't believe that AT has any positive benefit. It should never be done.
bob
@Cougar1978 said: "What really burns me up are stupid people that put price stickers, etc that leave residue on Holder that can’t be removed especially if close to where coin is on Holder.
There is not a sticker made that cannot be removed from a plastic slab! Goo Gone works. In a pinch, just use a hair dryer. LOL
@MarkInDavis said: "In my mind, the purpose of dipping is to remove contaminants from the surface of a coin. It is an unfortunate side effect that it also removes some non contaminants and alters the surface.
Please, please let's all stop perpetuating this altered surface thing! Don't take my word for it - do the experiment for yourself. I'll guarantee that if a 100% clean and original BU coin is properly dipped, neutralized and dried, there is not one person in numismatics that can tell the surface was altered after it was dipped. That same coin could be properly dipped MULTIPLE TIMES with the same result. While changes to the surface DO OCCUR, your eyes coupled with an 80X Stereo microscope WILL NOT SEE ANY CHANGE AT ALL!
It would be great fun to take 12 BU, white 1921 Morgans and lay them out to test any professional "EX-PERT" you wish to embarrass . Give them these tests:
Take six Morgans. let them examine each one. Then DON'T DIP ANY OF THEM. Ask them to pick out the dipped coin. Then tell them they were wrong. Tell them you are going to dip the exact same coin again. DON'T DIP IT. After the guess, tell them they were wrong. Do this three times. LOL.
After the first test, add six more BU 1921 Morgan s to the group (need more to remove luck/chance). Now, properly dip one and let them try to detect it. YOU MUST NEUTRALIZE THE COIN VERY WELL or Don't allow them to smell the coins. A dab of VICKS's under their nose will prevent any slip ups. You can properly dip the same coin over and over and 99.9% of the "experts" will not pick the coin. Five tries are enough to prove my point.
Here is the thing, sometime between the tenth dip (most we ever tried in class) and the thousandth, when the coin and your fingers are dissolved, you will be able to actually see that the coin's surface has been chemically altered.
PS Dipping is not "technically anything." Dipping is chemical cleaning.
It seems both are somewhat condoned in the hobby as people do both without consequences.
I don't think toning a coin artificiality is somewhat condoned. That alteration has just reached a point that it cannot be detected in all cases. With regard to cleaning, if it is done properly it cannot be detected in most cases so what's the harm if a coin's eye appeal is increased.
There is a set of known doctors and nothing has been able to stop them. Even the ANA has them teach their seminars.
Thanks, you made my point. Remember, the best folks to detect a doctored coin and teach how to detect it are the ones who can do it. LOL.
Besides, if it looks natural, it may as well be.
Absolutely!!
Because TPGs not only accept dipping but since they value luster so highly, they actually promote and reward dipping.
Artificial toning on the other hand is looked upon as a negative feature of a coin unless done by an expert and then is so close to natural toning that it is often graded as such.
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A lot of the coins that I own are silver, many are more than 100 years old, and most have been 'worked on' by somebody at some past time.
That's the nature of the beast.
Lots of the people who think they can tell if a silver coin has been cleaned, cannot reliably do so.
As for unusual toning and AT, we are just in a market "fad" that will pass when enough people have been separated from their green money.
You made my point too. Known doctors aren’t outed or ostracized, but celebrated. So it’s condoned
this post has done nothing more than convince me that: expert dipping === expert AT. Both make the coin have more eye appeal, and both cant be detected.
The only "difference" is the opinions/whims of the collecting public.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
@Insider2 said: "Besides, if it looks natural, it may as well be."
@Zoins replied: "So it’s condoned
"
Just because something that is considered a fraudulent alteration is missed and not detected does not mean it was OVERLOOKED on purpose. AT is not condoned.
@TradesWithChops Some alterations of all types often are undetected.
What is and is not AT is too hard to distinguish. If AT is based on intent, then two coins toned the same way could be AT or NT. e.g.: If I put a coin in an old coin album knowing it will tone, that is AT - versus a collector who does it ignorantly is NT? Using a higher concentration of chemical that is found in cardboard that caused 20 year album toning quicker is AT? Why? I'm unconvinced that there is a meaningful literal or ethical different between NT and AT.
Perhaps the only artificial thing about this discussion is how collectors are okay with some chemical reactions on their coins, and not okay with others.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Known doctors are not stopped. @specialist has talked about the PNG’s lack of action in this area. Looking at the coins is treating the symptom
Also, the reasoning that AT can damage the coins, and dipping conserves the coin is wholly lost on me.
Both can help, both can hurt. They are the same. When that logic is used, it makes me think that person cant think clearly due to their own bias.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Nevertheless, as I posted AT is NOT condoned!
If the PNG and the community take no action against known doctors, I’m not sure how else to describe it.
I'd call it an unintentional "Mechanical Error" on the label.
Condoning is as bad as the crime itself.
conspiracy to support AT
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
If I grade a counterfeit coin and it goes out graded in a genuine slab, I'm not condoning counterfeiting! If I grade an AT coin, FOR WHAT EVER THE MANY REASONS, and it gets graded in a slab, I'm not condoning AT.
Please look the definition of that word.
Don’t be so sensitive 😂