It's worse than even that makes it appear; if you add their walks, Allen's lead of 102 grows to 158.
Bill James' list of the most valuable players, excluding pitchers, in the AL in 1972:
1 Dick Allen
2 Bobby Murcer
3 Carlton Fisk
4t Carlos May
4t Joe Rudi
6t John Mayberry
6t Mike Epstein
8t Reggie Smith
8t Roy White
8t Reggie Jackson
11 Tommy Harper
12t Bobby Grich
12t Sal Bando
14t Ken Berry
14t Amos Otis
14t Rod Carew
Now there are a few guys in there who whose fielding had a lot of value, like Fisk, Grich, Bando and Berry. But strictly as hitters, the argument that Carew was better than Allen is just silly, as would be an argument that Carew was as good a hitter that year as Murcer, May or Epstein. But, a debate about the offensive value of Carew vs. Otis or the total value of Carew vs. Ken "I bet you've never heard of me" Berry would be good ones.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
It's worse than even that makes it appear; if you add their walks, Allen's lead of 102 grows to 158.
Bill James' list of the most valuable players, excluding pitchers, in the AL in 1972:
1 Dick Allen
2 Bobby Murcer
3 Carlton Fisk
4t Carlos May
4t Joe Rudi
6t John Mayberry
6t Mike Epstein
8t Reggie Smith
8t Roy White
8t Reggie Jackson
11 Tommy Harper
12t Bobby Grich
12t Sal Bando
14t Ken Berry
14t Amos Otis
14t Rod Carew
Now there are a few guys in there who whose fielding had a lot of value, like Fisk, Grich, Bando and Berry. But strictly as hitters, the argument that Carew was better than Allen is just silly, as would be an argument that Carew was as good a hitter that year as Murcer, May or Epstein. But, a debate about the offensive value of Carew vs. Otis or the total value of Carew vs. Ken "I bet you've never heard of me" Berry would be good ones.
u guys are talking offensive value, total bases, runs, obp, in 1972 not best hitter
@MLBdays said:
Ichiro played 9 seasons in Japan collecting 1278 hits (.353 avg.).... 1st year in majors he was age 27.... 3,089 total hits (.311) in MLB..... total pro hits 4,367 (.322) ....MORE than Rose (4,256) (.303 avg).... Had he played from 18 years of age in MLB like he did in Japan I believe he would have surpassed ROSE in MLB hits king..... we wont ever know but 4,367 and the single season MLB record of 262 hits is extraordinary. I think he was more gifted than ROSE in his defense and swing mechanics.... but Rose was a bulldog and certainly is an American treasure.... By all accounts Ichiro was a class act in every aspect of life.
4762
If you are going to include all of Ichiros pro hits, you need to be consistent and include all of Pete's pro hits. He had 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and of course 4256 ML hits. Pete had 4762 pro hits. 395 more than ichiro.
It's worse than even that makes it appear; if you add their walks, Allen's lead of 102 grows to 158.
Bill James' list of the most valuable players, excluding pitchers, in the AL in 1972:
1 Dick Allen
2 Bobby Murcer
3 Carlton Fisk
4t Carlos May
4t Joe Rudi
6t John Mayberry
6t Mike Epstein
8t Reggie Smith
8t Roy White
8t Reggie Jackson
11 Tommy Harper
12t Bobby Grich
12t Sal Bando
14t Ken Berry
14t Amos Otis
14t Rod Carew
Now there are a few guys in there who whose fielding had a lot of value, like Fisk, Grich, Bando and Berry. But strictly as hitters, the argument that Carew was better than Allen is just silly, as would be an argument that Carew was as good a hitter that year as Murcer, May or Epstein. But, a debate about the offensive value of Carew vs. Otis or the total value of Carew vs. Ken "I bet you've never heard of me" Berry would be good ones.
u guys are talking offensive value, total bases, runs, obp, in 1972 not best hitter
Ummm...total bases and obp are hitting stats. Anything that happens in the batting box is considered a hitting stat. That includes BB and total bases.
@MLBdays said:
Ichiro played 9 seasons in Japan collecting 1278 hits (.353 avg.).... 1st year in majors he was age 27.... 3,089 total hits (.311) in MLB..... total pro hits 4,367 (.322) ....MORE than Rose (4,256) (.303 avg).... Had he played from 18 years of age in MLB like he did in Japan I believe he would have surpassed ROSE in MLB hits king..... we wont ever know but 4,367 and the single season MLB record of 262 hits is extraordinary. I think he was more gifted than ROSE in his defense and swing mechanics.... but Rose was a bulldog and certainly is an American treasure.... By all accounts Ichiro was a class act in every aspect of life.
4762
If you are going to include all of Ichiros pro hits, you need to be consistent and include all of Pete's pro hits. He had 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and of course 4256 ML hits. Pete had 4762 pro hits. 395 more than ichiro.
craig is correct... did i just say that ?
Japan League is considered high AAA ball. and Petes hits should be included
@MLBdays said:
Ichiro played 9 seasons in Japan collecting 1278 hits (.353 avg.).... 1st year in majors he was age 27.... 3,089 total hits (.311) in MLB..... total pro hits 4,367 (.322) ....MORE than Rose (4,256) (.303 avg).... Had he played from 18 years of age in MLB like he did in Japan I believe he would have surpassed ROSE in MLB hits king..... we wont ever know but 4,367 and the single season MLB record of 262 hits is extraordinary. I think he was more gifted than ROSE in his defense and swing mechanics.... but Rose was a bulldog and certainly is an American treasure.... By all accounts Ichiro was a class act in every aspect of life.
4762
If you are going to include all of Ichiros pro hits, you need to be consistent and include all of Pete's pro hits. He had 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and of course 4256 ML hits. Pete had 4762 pro hits. 395 more than ichiro.
craig is correct... did i just say that ?
Japan League is considered high AAA ball. and Petes hits should be included
Don't those words just feel so right when you type them, Craig is correct.....
@MLBdays said:
Ichiro played 9 seasons in Japan collecting 1278 hits (.353 avg.).... 1st year in majors he was age 27.... 3,089 total hits (.311) in MLB..... total pro hits 4,367 (.322) ....MORE than Rose (4,256) (.303 avg).... Had he played from 18 years of age in MLB like he did in Japan I believe he would have surpassed ROSE in MLB hits king..... we wont ever know but 4,367 and the single season MLB record of 262 hits is extraordinary. I think he was more gifted than ROSE in his defense and swing mechanics.... but Rose was a bulldog and certainly is an American treasure.... By all accounts Ichiro was a class act in every aspect of life.
4762
If you are going to include all of Ichiros pro hits, you need to be consistent and include all of Pete's pro hits. He had 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and of course 4256 ML hits. Pete had 4762 pro hits. 395 more than ichiro.
craig is correct... did i just say that ?
Japan League is considered high AAA ball. and Petes hits should be included
Don't those words just feel so right when you type them, Craig is correct.....
No offense intended, but when he agrees with you on hitting, you better look again at your statement ;-)
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@MLBdays said:
Ichiro played 9 seasons in Japan collecting 1278 hits (.353 avg.).... 1st year in majors he was age 27.... 3,089 total hits (.311) in MLB..... total pro hits 4,367 (.322) ....MORE than Rose (4,256) (.303 avg).... Had he played from 18 years of age in MLB like he did in Japan I believe he would have surpassed ROSE in MLB hits king..... we wont ever know but 4,367 and the single season MLB record of 262 hits is extraordinary. I think he was more gifted than ROSE in his defense and swing mechanics.... but Rose was a bulldog and certainly is an American treasure.... By all accounts Ichiro was a class act in every aspect of life.
4762
If you are going to include all of Ichiros pro hits, you need to be consistent and include all of Pete's pro hits. He had 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and of course 4256 ML hits. Pete had 4762 pro hits. 395 more than ichiro.
craig is correct... did i just say that ?
Japan League is considered high AAA ball. and Petes hits should be included
Don't those words just feel so right when you type them, Craig is correct.....
No offense intended, but when he agrees with you on hitting, you better look again at your statement ;-)
@MLBdays said:
Ichiro played 9 seasons in Japan collecting 1278 hits (.353 avg.).... 1st year in majors he was age 27.... 3,089 total hits (.311) in MLB..... total pro hits 4,367 (.322) ....MORE than Rose (4,256) (.303 avg).... Had he played from 18 years of age in MLB like he did in Japan I believe he would have surpassed ROSE in MLB hits king..... we wont ever know but 4,367 and the single season MLB record of 262 hits is extraordinary. I think he was more gifted than ROSE in his defense and swing mechanics.... but Rose was a bulldog and certainly is an American treasure.... By all accounts Ichiro was a class act in every aspect of life.
This argument holds no water. Tuffy Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan and 13 in MLB. Should we give him credit for 477? Of course not. Because Tuffy Freaking Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan, which tells you what you need to know about the level of competition there.
now you going to tell me Mariano is not the greates relief pitcher
Using saves per appearance (like batting average for closers) Kimbrel is better.
Kimbrel also has a better WHIP, better K/9, better FIP, and better ERA. He has the lowest ERA of any pitcher in the live ball era with 500+ innings pitched. Also has the lowest Hits per 9 of anybody in the live ball era, too (4.82/9). AND the highest K/9.
@Darin said:
A simple rule of common sense maybe Dallas can use in the future.
If the player you think is the best hitter for any decade, had a slugging % in the .300's three times in the decade, then that player is not the best hitter of the decade.
Try to use a little common sense and you would see things like that.
Just trying to help, not be hurtful.
You guys, lets not forget that Darin's methods have Rich Dauer as a superior hitter than Harmon Killebrew, because when Dauer swung the bat he struck the ball more often and resulted in a higher batting average.
It sounds like this lawyer guy is just as bright...and probably the same clown that got destroyed in the Brett Schmidt debates, where only those two clowns still clung to the notion of Brett being anywhere close to Schmidt...and ironically, their very own methods in that debate vaulted seven other third baseman as better than Brett...lmao. Priceless.
@Darin said:
A simple rule of common sense maybe Dallas can use in the future.
If the player you think is the best hitter for any decade, had a slugging % in the .300's three times in the decade, then that player is not the best hitter of the decade.
Try to use a little common sense and you would see things like that.
Just trying to help, not be hurtful.
You guys, lets not forget that Darin's methods have Rich Dauer as a superior hitter than Harmon Killebrew, because when Dauer swung the bat he struck the ball more often and resulted in a higher batting average.
It sounds like this lawyer guy is just as bright...and probably the same clown that got destroyed in the Brett Schmidt debates, where only those two clowns still clung to the notion of Brett being anywhere close to Schmidt...and ironically, their very own methods in that debate vaulted seven other third baseman as better than Brett...lmao. Priceless.
No, that's incorrect. I was arguing for Stargell because his power numbers dwarf Joe Morgan's in the 1970's.
There was no mention of batting average, I actually don't know if it was Stargell or Morgan who hit for
a higher average in the decade. And I'll repeat, anyone who couldn't get their slugging percentage above
.400 for three years in any decade, is simply not the best hitter of the decade. Always better candidates than that.
But in Dallas' defense, he didn't even understand the question, he thought it was best player of the decade, not
best hitter. But too proud to admit it.
Whatever, Morgan may have been best player, but certainly not best hitter.
Oh, and in the future at least try to get your facts correct before commenting, as I made no mention of batting average.
@Tabe said:
This argument holds no water. Tuffy Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan and 13 in MLB. Should we give him credit for 477? Of course not. Because Tuffy Freaking Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan, which tells you what you need to know about the level of competition there.
My favorite example is Felix Millan. Millan was a slap-single hitter who refused to take a walk; he hit .300 once when he was younger, but usually hit .270 or so and was out of MLB at 33 after hitting ,248 (and slugging .315). So Millan went to Japan, refuge of many former MLB players who weren't good enough to play in the MLB anymore. At 35 years old, Millan hit .346 and led the league.
Japanese baseball is not AAA-level, and it's not even AA level. It's the level where small, slow, old men can lead the league in batting average, and players who hit a HR every 52 MLB at bats can hit one every 13 at bats. There are minor league teams of similar quality in cities like Clinton, Iowa and Missoula, Montana. The only real difference is that there are more people playing in Clinton and Missoula right now who will one day be good enough to play in MLB than there are in Japan.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@Tabe said:
This argument holds no water. Tuffy Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan and 13 in MLB. Should we give him credit for 477? Of course not. Because Tuffy Freaking Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan, which tells you what you need to know about the level of competition there.
My favorite example is Felix Millan. Millan was a slap-single hitter who refused to take a walk; he hit .300 once when he was younger, but usually hit .270 or so and was out of MLB at 33 after hitting ,248 (and slugging .315). So Millan went to Japan, refuge of many former MLB players who weren't good enough to play in the MLB anymore. At 35 years old, Millan hit .346 and led the league.
Japanese baseball is not AAA-level, and it's not even AA level. It's the level where small, slow, old men can lead the league in batting average, and players who hit a HR every 52 MLB at bats can hit one every 13 at bats. There are minor league teams of similar quality in cities like Clinton, Iowa and Missoula, Montana. The only real difference is that there are more people playing in Clinton and Missoula right now who will one day be good enough to play in MLB than there are in Japan.
I will have to see if there is anyway to stream japanese baseball games. I'd like to know if they can finish a game in 2 hours . If so I would rather watch them than our 162 game coma inducing season. Double A or not , at least I won't need to dig my eyeballs out with a fork.
Does Japanese David Price take 55 seconds to throw each pitch? Does Japanese David Ortiz step out of the box 65 times?
Update I thought I found a stream but its actually Turkish women's volleyball broadcast in Japanese . Its better than US baseball though, next time I'll turn left in Albuquerque
It is certainly a considerably lower level of baseball. How many legitimate superstars have come from Japan? Just ichiro I think. Nomo was popular for a bit, had no staying power. Matsui was never a superstar.
@craig44 said:
It is certainly a considerably lower level of baseball. How many legitimate superstars have come from Japan? Just ichiro I think. Nomo was popular for a bit, had no staying power. Matsui was never a superstar.
How about stars who played for the Clinton, Iowa LumberKings?
Orel Hershiser
Denny McLain
Darrell Porter
Dave Stewart
Gorman Thomas
Matt Williams
The Missoula, Montana Osprey? Well, they haven't been around as long as the venerable LumberKings, but Paul Goldschmidt played there.
The Peoria Chiefs put Japan to shame, though. Greg Maddux, Ryne Sandberg, Albert Pujols, Yadier Molina, Nomar Garciaparra and Rick Sutcliffe all played there, along with too many lesser stars to count. I suspect the current Peoria Chiefs would win the Japanese title without breaking a sweat.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
Turns out you can stream the NBA playoffs from Japan too. Just saw Hardin try to pretend he got elbowed , the Japanese announcers were laughing at him.
There is a little chat window on the right side of the screen seeing lots of angry penguin emojis
And I'll repeat, anyone who couldn't get their slugging percentage above
.400 for three years in any decade, is simply not the best hitter of the decade. Always better candidates than that.
Carew had three years in the decade below .400 as well.
Well I'm not arguing in favor of Carew as the best hitter of the 70's.
And actually I'm not necessarily saying Stargell was the best hitter of the 70's.
I'm just saying Stargell was better than Morgan.
That is a funny stat, Carew is basically known as a singles hitter, and him and Morgan
both had three years below .400 slugging. Kind of helps my point, seeing Morgan
is more closely lumped in with Carew than Stargell as far as power numbers.
@Tabe said:
This argument holds no water. Tuffy Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan and 13 in MLB. Should we give him credit for 477? Of course not. Because Tuffy Freaking Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan, which tells you what you need to know about the level of competition there.
My favorite example is Felix Millan. Millan was a slap-single hitter who refused to take a walk; he hit .300 once when he was younger, but usually hit .270 or so and was out of MLB at 33 after hitting ,248 (and slugging .315). So Millan went to Japan, refuge of many former MLB players who weren't good enough to play in the MLB anymore. At 35 years old, Millan hit .346 and led the league.
Japanese baseball is not AAA-level, and it's not even AA level. It's the level where small, slow, old men can lead the league in batting average, and players who hit a HR every 52 MLB at bats can hit one every 13 at bats. There are minor league teams of similar quality in cities like Clinton, Iowa and Missoula, Montana. The only real difference is that there are more people playing in Clinton and Missoula right now who will one day be good enough to play in MLB than there are in Japan.
Dallas quoting Felix Millan's slugging percentage (.315)
And I'll repeat, anyone who couldn't get their slugging percentage above
.400 for three years in any decade, is simply not the best hitter of the decade. Always better candidates than that.
Carew had three years in the decade below .400 as well.
Well I'm not arguing in favor of Carew as the best hitter of the 70's.
And actually I'm not necessarily saying Stargell was the best hitter of the 70's.
I'm just saying Stargell was better than Morgan.
That is a funny stat, Carew is basically known as a singles hitter, and him and Morgan
both had three years below .400 slugging. Kind of helps my point, seeing Morgan
is more closely lumped in with Carew than Stargell as far as power numbers.
I like Stargell better as a hitter, OPS for the decade was over .900 Morgan was at .859, Morgan as a better offensive player, BUT they are certainly not comparable types. Morgan in the #2 spot or even batting third and Willie clean-up!
Carew and Morgan better suited for comparison. Carew has the better BA, Morgan DESTROYS him everywhere else offensively.
Hasn't been mentioned, but defensively as well.
Who does get your vote as best of the 1970's?
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I’ve been to many games in Japan. They are a blast. They are an event. The crowds are totally into it. The baseball itself? Not that great. Most pitchers have one maybe two pitches
My favorite video is that of Rod Allen who was on the 1984 Detroit Tigers roster. He was a Tigers TV announcer for years until he got fired in 2018 for getting in a physical scuffle with the play by play guy. He also played in Japan for awhile.
Enjoy this video and watch the sheer terror on the pitchers face
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@JoeBanzai said:
Carew and Morgan better suited for comparison. Carew has the better BA, Morgan DESTROYS him everywhere else offensively.
Hasn't been mentioned, but defensively as well.
I don't think that even the people arguing for someone other than Morgan as the best hitter of the 1970's would try to argue that Morgan wasn't the best overall player of the 1970's.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
And I'll repeat, anyone who couldn't get their slugging percentage above
.400 for three years in any decade, is simply not the best hitter of the decade. Always better candidates than that.
Carew had three years in the decade below .400 as well.
Well I'm not arguing in favor of Carew as the best hitter of the 70's.
And actually I'm not necessarily saying Stargell was the best hitter of the 70's.
I'm just saying Stargell was better than Morgan.
That is a funny stat, Carew is basically known as a singles hitter, and him and Morgan
both had three years below .400 slugging. Kind of helps my point, seeing Morgan
is more closely lumped in with Carew than Stargell as far as power numbers.
I like Stargell better as a hitter, OPS for the decade was over .900 Morgan was at .859, Morgan as a better offensive player, BUT they are certainly not comparable types. Morgan in the #2 spot or even batting third and Willie clean-up!
Carew and Morgan better suited for comparison. Carew has the better BA, Morgan DESTROYS him everywhere else offensively.
Hasn't been mentioned, but defensively as well.
Who does get your vote as best of the 1970's?
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
And just to be fair, I would probably pick Morgan best player of the decade. The stolen bases and baserunning, plus
his ability to draw walks, can't be ignored. He was smart, he knew it was important for him to get on base anyway he
could, because of his ability to steal bases. In that aspect its hard to compare him with Stargell, because Willie knew
his value was in swinging the lumber and driving in runs. Walks weren't as important to him so sometimes comparing
players with a different approach at the plate probably isn't completely fair.
Agree Morgan was the best player of the 70’s with the eye test and stats.
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Darin said:
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
Question for you. Who was the better hitter:
Schmidt: OPS+ of 147, SLG of .527
Brett: OPS+ of 135, SLG of .487
You just stated very clearly that these two stats, and these two stats alone, were sufficient to "clearly" determine the best hitter, but I could swear that there was a thread recently where you argued for Brett. It's almost as if you're just making stuff up and have no idea what you're talking about.
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@Darin said:
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
Question for you. Who was the better hitter:
Schmidt: OPS+ of 147, SLG of .527
Brett: OPS+ of 135, SLG of .487
You just stated very clearly that these two stats, and these two stats alone, were sufficient to "clearly" determine the best hitter, but I could swear that there was a thread recently where you argued for Brett. It's almost as if you're just making stuff up and have no idea what you're talking about.
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
And just to be fair, I would probably pick Morgan best player of the decade. The stolen bases and baserunning, plus
his ability to draw walks, can't be ignored. He was smart, he knew it was important for him to get on base anyway he
could, because of his ability to steal bases. In that aspect its hard to compare him with Stargell, because Willie knew
his value was in swinging the lumber and driving in runs. Walks weren't as important to him so sometimes comparing
players with a different approach at the plate probably isn't completely fair.
Agreed.
Unusually good post there my man!
OPS numbers for decade;
Willie .925
Reggie .870
Johnny .837
Joey .790
Rodney .783
Hitting wise is pretty clear. Stargell was quite a bit better.
Overall greatest player is tougher.
Morgan was fantastic on the bases AND in the field.
Bench was a HUGE asset behind the plate as a fielder at possibly the most important position. He slugged .488 for the decade, with an unusually low SLG in 1976, an average year here would bring his SLG up to around .500. Injured perhaps? He did play in a few less games that year.
If you consider the "intangibles" Bench closes the gap, I would pick Morgan, but won't dispute anyone saying Bench was as important to the team.
Not surprising their team made it to 4 WS during the decade!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Started thinking about how averages could be deceiving, so I took a look at some different numbers.
My first thought was a point I noticed about Carew and 1970.
Looking at OPS and OPS+ he had a great year, 2nd highest OPS and 3rd "best" OPS+ of his career, BUT he played in only 51 games, more accurate was he had 204 plate appearances. 1/3 of a season is NOT a great year even though he was great when he played.
In looking at total contributions;
Joe Morgan, 6320 PA 2339 TB 1071BB TB+BB=3410 Over 500PA every year, over 639 7 of first 8 seasons.
Johnny Bench, 6006 PA 2566 TB 687BB TB+BB=3253 Only 1 year with under 538 PA. 1976 and 1971 were down years.
Reggie Jackson, 5913PA 2604TB 678BB TB+BB=3282 Had over 514PA every year.
Willie Stargell, 5083PA 2440TB 595BB TB+BB=3035 He missed a lot of time 1976-79 (about 200 games) yet still had awesome OPS+ numbers.
Rod Carew, 5916PA 2368TB 586BB TB+BB=2954 SURPRISE (for me anyway) much more valuable here for me than before. MORE TB than Joe! He did have a few more AB than Morgan, but that was a surprise. I DID double check my numbers.
I used PA instead of AB because I included BB as a factor.
Still have Morgan as the best and Bench as second, but now am thinking Reggie with 83 more PA per year, more TB and BB did more for his team than Willie. Willie was DEFINITELY better when he played, but Reggie played more often.
Also noticed that 1976 was an awful year for hitters, except for Joe Morgan. Madlock the only other batter in MLB with OPS above .900?!?!?!?!? Schmidt was at .900.
Feel free to check my numbers and I'd love to hear what everyone has to say about Reggie VS Willie.
It was VERY hard for me to like ANYTHING about Reggie..............couldn't stand the guy.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@Darin said:
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
Question for you. Who was the better hitter:
Schmidt: OPS+ of 147, SLG of .527
Brett: OPS+ of 135, SLG of .487
You just stated very clearly that these two stats, and these two stats alone, were sufficient to "clearly" determine the best hitter, but I could swear that there was a thread recently where you argued for Brett. It's almost as if you're just making stuff up and have no idea what you're talking about.
Who was the best hitter of the 70's? Schmidt, Stargell, Reggie,(Jackson or Smith?)
Because it sure wasn't Joe Morgan.
@Darin said:
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
Question for you. Who was the better hitter:
Schmidt: OPS+ of 147, SLG of .527
Brett: OPS+ of 135, SLG of .487
You just stated very clearly that these two stats, and these two stats alone, were sufficient to "clearly" determine the best hitter, but I could swear that there was a thread recently where you argued for Brett. It's almost as if you're just making stuff up and have no idea what you're talking about.
You got me. Now I understand why you, and indeed every single person on this forum, views me with an uncomfortable mix of amusement and pity. But rather than be a man about it, I am going to ignore the question you asked me and instead ask you a question that you've already answered. I'm hoping that by changing the subject some of the less bright members of the forum won't notice what a fool I've made of myself. I don't know what they odds are that there's anyone as dumb as me, but what other choice do I have? So anyway,
Who was the best hitter of the 70's? Schmidt, Stargell, Reggie,(Jackson or Smith?)
Because it sure wasn't Joe Morgan.
As you so eloquently pointed out, I already answered that question. It was Joe Morgan.
And I'll try again, who was the better hitter, Brett or Schmidt?
This is for you @thisistheshow - Jim Rice was actually a pretty good player.
@Darin said:
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
Question for you. Who was the better hitter:
Schmidt: OPS+ of 147, SLG of .527
Brett: OPS+ of 135, SLG of .487
You just stated very clearly that these two stats, and these two stats alone, were sufficient to "clearly" determine the best hitter, but I could swear that there was a thread recently where you argued for Brett. It's almost as if you're just making stuff up and have no idea what you're talking about.
You got me. Now I understand why you, and indeed every single person on this forum, views me with an uncomfortable mix of amusement and pity. But rather than be a man about it, I am going to ignore the question you asked me and instead ask you a question that you've already answered. I'm hoping that by changing the subject some of the less bright members of the forum won't notice what a fool I've made of myself. I don't know what they odds are that there's anyone as dumb as me, but what other choice do I have? So anyway,
Who was the best hitter of the 70's? Schmidt, Stargell, Reggie,(Jackson or Smith?)
Because it sure wasn't Joe Morgan.
As you so eloquently pointed out, I already answered that question. It was Joe Morgan.
And I'll try again, who was the better hitter, Brett or Schmidt?
when you fix other peoples quotes steveK gets his dander up. He might not notice though I think he's up on a ledge somewhere over this wentz thing
@Darin said:
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
Question for you. Who was the better hitter:
Schmidt: OPS+ of 147, SLG of .527
Brett: OPS+ of 135, SLG of .487
You just stated very clearly that these two stats, and these two stats alone, were sufficient to "clearly" determine the best hitter, but I could swear that there was a thread recently where you argued for Brett. It's almost as if you're just making stuff up and have no idea what you're talking about.
You got me. Now I understand why you, and indeed every single person on this forum, views me with an uncomfortable mix of amusement and pity. But rather than be a man about it, I am going to ignore the question you asked me and instead ask you a question that you've already answered. I'm hoping that by changing the subject some of the less bright members of the forum won't notice what a fool I've made of myself. I don't know what they odds are that there's anyone as dumb as me, but what other choice do I have? So anyway,
Who was the best hitter of the 70's? Schmidt, Stargell, Reggie,(Jackson or Smith?)
Because it sure wasn't Joe Morgan.
As you so eloquently pointed out, I already answered that question. It was Joe Morgan.
And I'll try again, who was the better hitter, Brett or Schmidt?
George Brett.
This is the second time in a few days you've tried to humiliate and embarrass me on a public forum.
When you say to someone that everyone is laughing at him and continue to call him dumb just for voicing
an opinion, then you're really not worth responding to.
I'm done with you and skin, would rather associate with people who aren't so miserable.
Take your childish jokes and get lost.
For best hitter of the decade, I still say it's stargell. No baserunning, no positional adjustment. Just what happens in the batters box. Gotta be Willie
Comments
1972 Total bases
Allen 305
Carew 203
LOL THAT! ;-)
It's worse than even that makes it appear; if you add their walks, Allen's lead of 102 grows to 158.
Bill James' list of the most valuable players, excluding pitchers, in the AL in 1972:
1 Dick Allen
2 Bobby Murcer
3 Carlton Fisk
4t Carlos May
4t Joe Rudi
6t John Mayberry
6t Mike Epstein
8t Reggie Smith
8t Roy White
8t Reggie Jackson
11 Tommy Harper
12t Bobby Grich
12t Sal Bando
14t Ken Berry
14t Amos Otis
14t Rod Carew
Now there are a few guys in there who whose fielding had a lot of value, like Fisk, Grich, Bando and Berry. But strictly as hitters, the argument that Carew was better than Allen is just silly, as would be an argument that Carew was as good a hitter that year as Murcer, May or Epstein. But, a debate about the offensive value of Carew vs. Otis or the total value of Carew vs. Ken "I bet you've never heard of me" Berry would be good ones.
u guys are talking offensive value, total bases, runs, obp, in 1972 not best hitter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
CAREW IS STILL THE 1972 BATTING CHAMPION
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Absolutely correct! He was NOT the best hitter though.
no the best hitter
was
the
1. The Mexican
2. Stan Musial
Then Carew
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
4762
If you are going to include all of Ichiros pro hits, you need to be consistent and include all of Pete's pro hits. He had 86 postseason hits, 427 minor league hits and of course 4256 ML hits. Pete had 4762 pro hits. 395 more than ichiro.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Ummm...total bases and obp are hitting stats. Anything that happens in the batting box is considered a hitting stat. That includes BB and total bases.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
craig is correct... did i just say that ?
Japan League is considered high AAA ball. and Petes hits should be included
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Don't those words just feel so right when you type them, Craig is correct.....
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No offense intended, but when he agrees with you on hitting, you better look again at your statement ;-)
Assuming "The Mexican" means Ted Williams.
Musial was really good too.
Carew about 100 or so spots below them.
I know, right
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
now you going to tell me Mariano is not the greates relief pitcher
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_from_Panama
Isn't it sad that the greatest relief pitcher is little more than a failed starter.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
This argument holds no water. Tuffy Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan and 13 in MLB. Should we give him credit for 477? Of course not. Because Tuffy Freaking Rhodes hit 464 homers in Japan, which tells you what you need to know about the level of competition there.
I can see the argument to add MLB All-Star game, playoff and WS hits to someone's totals as they were accomplished against Major League players.
Anything else is foolish.
Using saves per appearance (like batting average for closers) Kimbrel is better.
Hoffman about the same as Rivera.
Williams was #2
Musial #13
Carew #298
Joe Mauer was better than Carew!
>
Highest lifetime BA
Cobb
Hornsby
Jackson
Or
Most batting titles
Cobb
Wagner
Gwynn
Rod doesn't make it here even using what you claim makes a great hitter.
Hornsby was in the top 5.
Kimbrel also has a better WHIP, better K/9, better FIP, and better ERA. He has the lowest ERA of any pitcher in the live ball era with 500+ innings pitched. Also has the lowest Hits per 9 of anybody in the live ball era, too (4.82/9). AND the highest K/9.
AND the highest K/9.
potheads blowing shotguns up their dogs nose is totally wrong but in the grand scheme of things its a minor issue. Safer than edibles supposedly .
You guys, lets not forget that Darin's methods have Rich Dauer as a superior hitter than Harmon Killebrew, because when Dauer swung the bat he struck the ball more often and resulted in a higher batting average.
It sounds like this lawyer guy is just as bright...and probably the same clown that got destroyed in the Brett Schmidt debates, where only those two clowns still clung to the notion of Brett being anywhere close to Schmidt...and ironically, their very own methods in that debate vaulted seven other third baseman as better than Brett...lmao. Priceless.
Saves. A metric just about as valuable as batting average...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
No, that's incorrect. I was arguing for Stargell because his power numbers dwarf Joe Morgan's in the 1970's.
There was no mention of batting average, I actually don't know if it was Stargell or Morgan who hit for
a higher average in the decade. And I'll repeat, anyone who couldn't get their slugging percentage above
.400 for three years in any decade, is simply not the best hitter of the decade. Always better candidates than that.
But in Dallas' defense, he didn't even understand the question, he thought it was best player of the decade, not
best hitter. But too proud to admit it.
Whatever, Morgan may have been best player, but certainly not best hitter.
Oh, and in the future at least try to get your facts correct before commenting, as I made no mention of batting average.
And I'll repeat, anyone who couldn't get their slugging percentage above
Carew had three years in the decade below .400 as well.
My favorite example is Felix Millan. Millan was a slap-single hitter who refused to take a walk; he hit .300 once when he was younger, but usually hit .270 or so and was out of MLB at 33 after hitting ,248 (and slugging .315). So Millan went to Japan, refuge of many former MLB players who weren't good enough to play in the MLB anymore. At 35 years old, Millan hit .346 and led the league.
Japanese baseball is not AAA-level, and it's not even AA level. It's the level where small, slow, old men can lead the league in batting average, and players who hit a HR every 52 MLB at bats can hit one every 13 at bats. There are minor league teams of similar quality in cities like Clinton, Iowa and Missoula, Montana. The only real difference is that there are more people playing in Clinton and Missoula right now who will one day be good enough to play in MLB than there are in Japan.
I will have to see if there is anyway to stream japanese baseball games. I'd like to know if they can finish a game in 2 hours . If so I would rather watch them than our 162 game coma inducing season. Double A or not , at least I won't need to dig my eyeballs out with a fork.
Does Japanese David Price take 55 seconds to throw each pitch? Does Japanese David Ortiz step out of the box 65 times?
Update I thought I found a stream but its actually Turkish women's volleyball broadcast in Japanese . Its better than US baseball though, next time I'll turn left in Albuquerque
It is certainly a considerably lower level of baseball. How many legitimate superstars have come from Japan? Just ichiro I think. Nomo was popular for a bit, had no staying power. Matsui was never a superstar.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
How about stars who played for the Clinton, Iowa LumberKings?
Orel Hershiser
Denny McLain
Darrell Porter
Dave Stewart
Gorman Thomas
Matt Williams
The Missoula, Montana Osprey? Well, they haven't been around as long as the venerable LumberKings, but Paul Goldschmidt played there.
The Peoria Chiefs put Japan to shame, though. Greg Maddux, Ryne Sandberg, Albert Pujols, Yadier Molina, Nomar Garciaparra and Rick Sutcliffe all played there, along with too many lesser stars to count. I suspect the current Peoria Chiefs would win the Japanese title without breaking a sweat.
Turns out you can stream the NBA playoffs from Japan too. Just saw Hardin try to pretend he got elbowed , the Japanese announcers were laughing at him.
There is a little chat window on the right side of the screen seeing lots of angry penguin emojis
Well I'm not arguing in favor of Carew as the best hitter of the 70's.
And actually I'm not necessarily saying Stargell was the best hitter of the 70's.
I'm just saying Stargell was better than Morgan.
That is a funny stat, Carew is basically known as a singles hitter, and him and Morgan
Kind of helps my point, seeing Morgan
both had three years below .400 slugging.
is more closely lumped in with Carew than Stargell as far as power numbers.
Dallas quoting Felix Millan's slugging percentage (.315)
I like Stargell better as a hitter, OPS for the decade was over .900 Morgan was at .859, Morgan as a better offensive player, BUT they are certainly not comparable types. Morgan in the #2 spot or even batting third and Willie clean-up!
Carew and Morgan better suited for comparison. Carew has the better BA, Morgan DESTROYS him everywhere else offensively.
Hasn't been mentioned, but defensively as well.
Who does get your vote as best of the 1970's?
I’ve been to many games in Japan. They are a blast. They are an event. The crowds are totally into it. The baseball itself? Not that great. Most pitchers have one maybe two pitches
My favorite video is that of Rod Allen who was on the 1984 Detroit Tigers roster. He was a Tigers TV announcer for years until he got fired in 2018 for getting in a physical scuffle with the play by play guy. He also played in Japan for awhile.
Enjoy this video and watch the sheer terror on the pitchers face
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=VEfgeYelL7g
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I don't think that even the people arguing for someone other than Morgan as the best hitter of the 1970's would try to argue that Morgan wasn't the best overall player of the 1970's.
I guess nobody does come up as a better hitter than Stargell in the 70's.
Stargell had an OPS+ of 156 for the decade. Reggie was pretty good with an OPS+ of 148. Morgan was at 140.
Looks like Willie blew everyone away with a SLG. % of .555, Reggie was at .508, Morgan 100 points behind at .455
So I guess as far as hitting Stargell was clearly superior to everyone in the 70's.
And just to be fair, I would probably pick Morgan best player of the decade. The stolen bases and baserunning, plus
his ability to draw walks, can't be ignored. He was smart, he knew it was important for him to get on base anyway he
could, because of his ability to steal bases. In that aspect its hard to compare him with Stargell, because Willie knew
his value was in swinging the lumber and driving in runs. Walks weren't as important to him so sometimes comparing
players with a different approach at the plate probably isn't completely fair.
Agree Morgan was the best player of the 70’s with the eye test and stats.
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Question for you. Who was the better hitter:
Schmidt: OPS+ of 147, SLG of .527
Brett: OPS+ of 135, SLG of .487
You just stated very clearly that these two stats, and these two stats alone, were sufficient to "clearly" determine the best hitter, but I could swear that there was a thread recently where you argued for Brett. It's almost as if you're just making stuff up and have no idea what you're talking about.
I might take Johnny Bench.
Bench was a transcendent player. The kind of offense he produced from the catcher position was tremendous.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Checkmate. Again.
Agreed.
Unusually good post there my man!
OPS numbers for decade;
Willie .925
Reggie .870
Johnny .837
Joey .790
Rodney .783
Hitting wise is pretty clear. Stargell was quite a bit better.
Overall greatest player is tougher.
Morgan was fantastic on the bases AND in the field.
Bench was a HUGE asset behind the plate as a fielder at possibly the most important position. He slugged .488 for the decade, with an unusually low SLG in 1976, an average year here would bring his SLG up to around .500. Injured perhaps? He did play in a few less games that year.
If you consider the "intangibles" Bench closes the gap, I would pick Morgan, but won't dispute anyone saying Bench was as important to the team.
Not surprising their team made it to 4 WS during the decade!
Started thinking about how averages could be deceiving, so I took a look at some different numbers.
My first thought was a point I noticed about Carew and 1970.
Looking at OPS and OPS+ he had a great year, 2nd highest OPS and 3rd "best" OPS+ of his career, BUT he played in only 51 games, more accurate was he had 204 plate appearances. 1/3 of a season is NOT a great year even though he was great when he played.
In looking at total contributions;
Joe Morgan, 6320 PA 2339 TB 1071BB TB+BB=3410 Over 500PA every year, over 639 7 of first 8 seasons.
Johnny Bench, 6006 PA 2566 TB 687BB TB+BB=3253 Only 1 year with under 538 PA. 1976 and 1971 were down years.
Reggie Jackson, 5913PA 2604TB 678BB TB+BB=3282 Had over 514PA every year.
Willie Stargell, 5083PA 2440TB 595BB TB+BB=3035 He missed a lot of time 1976-79 (about 200 games) yet still had awesome OPS+ numbers.
Rod Carew, 5916PA 2368TB 586BB TB+BB=2954 SURPRISE (for me anyway) much more valuable here for me than before. MORE TB than Joe! He did have a few more AB than Morgan, but that was a surprise. I DID double check my numbers.
I used PA instead of AB because I included BB as a factor.
Still have Morgan as the best and Bench as second, but now am thinking Reggie with 83 more PA per year, more TB and BB did more for his team than Willie. Willie was DEFINITELY better when he played, but Reggie played more often.
Also noticed that 1976 was an awful year for hitters, except for Joe Morgan. Madlock the only other batter in MLB with OPS above .900?!?!?!?!? Schmidt was at .900.
Feel free to check my numbers and I'd love to hear what everyone has to say about Reggie VS Willie.
It was VERY hard for me to like ANYTHING about Reggie..............couldn't stand the guy.
Who was the best hitter of the 70's? Schmidt, Stargell, Reggie,(Jackson or Smith?)
Because it sure wasn't Joe Morgan.
As you so eloquently pointed out, I already answered that question. It was Joe Morgan.
And I'll try again, who was the better hitter, Brett or Schmidt?
when you fix other peoples quotes steveK gets his dander up. He might not notice though I think he's up on a ledge somewhere over this wentz thing
George Brett.
This is the second time in a few days you've tried to humiliate and embarrass me on a public forum.
When you say to someone that everyone is laughing at him and continue to call him dumb just for voicing
an opinion, then you're really not worth responding to.
I'm done with you and skin, would rather associate with people who aren't so miserable.
Take your childish jokes and get lost.
For best hitter of the decade, I still say it's stargell. No baserunning, no positional adjustment. Just what happens in the batters box. Gotta be Willie
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Be fair, the humiliation and embarrassment you brought on yourself by mentioning your sixth grade spelling feats dwarfs anything I've done.