Bad news about AT
Insider2
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The "doctors" are improving their product. Take a nice clean coin and tone it up looking for an MS-66 or 67! Unfortunately, I cannot post any images as the coins will be recognized.
Artificial toning often has certain telltale patterns and colors. Don't forget to check the coin's edge for clues. I'm going to bump an old discussion when I find it so we can continue to post images of AT patterns. For now: look for "color flow.
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I asked not too long about about the edges and signs of AT. I have a coin, sent off for photographs from the now banned user Fade2Black...when I get the coins back I'll post what caught my eye.....
Don't quote me on that.
Can you give some examples of what natural and artificial toning look like?
And what exactly do you look for in terms of “color flow” to determine if the toning is natural vs artificial?
Sorry, I can only scratch the surface. As I posted, I will look for my former discussion and add to it. In the meantime, there are plenty of threads discussing AT vs NT.
Another thing, the doctors are not dummies. What they do makes $$$$ for everyone. I'll bet there are some characteristics of AT coins that the TPGS probably keep under wraps. BTW, the best folks to detect AT are the guys doing it! So as I posted before, AFAIK, there is NO !00% accurate way to tell AT/NT. That's why my simple solution is to not care. If it looks natural - it may as well be.
Why couldn't that edge pattern be the result of the coin being in album (bottom of photo down) for a prolonged period of time? Or are you considering "album toning" to be a form of AT?
I'm sure it could. HOWEVER, I didn't post the rest of the coin for your critique.
The silver album toned coins I've seen are basically black on the rims.
Well, eventually the coin pictured would get to black. We are at a disadvantage as we can't see the faces of the coin pictured. But my only question/point was how truly indicative the edge pattern alone was of anything other than oxidation.
That's true, of course. I was just trying to ascertain how indicative the edge pattern alone was of anything.
Question #2 (if you want to share) Is the toning uniform on both faces of the coin?
Question #3 (if you know) Why is the pattern on the edge biased towards one side? [I can think of a couple reasons but I will defer right now.]
Disagree. First, because what looks natural to one person may look unnatural to others. And second, because the toning on AT coins is probably less likely to be stable.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Agree and disagree.
What looks natural is subjective. Agree.
Toning on AT coins is less likely to be stable. Fairly strongly disagree.
In general, the chemical composition of NT and AT are identical. They could be oxides, sulfides or a mix. The "stability" of the toning is only a function of the availability of the chemical agents required and the conditions of storage.
Disagree all you wish:
"First, because what looks natural to one person may look unnatural to OTHERS."
You of all people should agree that all "numismatists/dealers/professionals/collectors" are not equal. I suspect that less than 1% of that group can match your knowledge in several areas. Therefore, you are raising a straw man argument. What looks natural an experienced, knowledgeable, professional, such as yourself PROBABLY IS. What the unwashed others think does not matter. It is up to them to strive to be in that 1%. I've been working on becoming informed for a long time. I realize that I will never, ever reach that goal.
"Second, because the toning on AT coins is probably less likely to be stable."
LOL, It only needs to be stable for as long as it is needed. I suspect that most chemical treatments to silver will be rather permanent. This a lot different than the alterations done to gold today and in the past that did change.
For the sake of clarity, are you pointing out the two tone appearance of the rim as evidence of AT?
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Such a vague post. Next to meaningless as the good stuff is purposely left out.
What you are stating as fact is incorrect. I have seen numerous examples of coins changing colors after being stabbed by PCGS. The chemical agents were removed when placed in the PCGS holder.
If a coin can't get a straight grade at ICG, whether at, cleaned, etc. it has a snowball's chance in h*** at NGC/PCGS.
I apologize for posting things you already knew. Perhaps you should block worthless posters.
@jmlanzaf asked: "Is the toning uniform on both faces of the coin?" no. "Why is the pattern on the edge biased towards one side?" Possibly because the coin is placed into a solution that only covers one side and halfway up the edge.
Unfortunately the coin is gone. After I download some images tomorrow, I will post an image of a GENUINE half toned edge and show how it occurred.
That will satisfy your question if this type of toning could occur naturally and prove to me that my initial assumption/reply (that it could happen) was correct.
@bolivarshagnasty said: "I have seen numerous examples of coins changing colors after being stabbed by PCGS. The chemical agents were removed when placed in the PCGS holder."
Were the coins silver? If so we are not speaking about the coins that were brilliant white when graded and then turned brown in the slab because they were not neutralized. There are other reasons a coin can turn in a slab. Colorful PCI coins graded 100% white in slabs provide an excellent proof of your post.
The PCI slabs actually caused the toning while PCGS slabs are known not to tone coins. My point is that even after being placed in a neutral environment, toning can continue to change due to what was “added” to the coins surface. Jmlanzaf indicated that once removed from the environment, the coin would stabilize which I believe is incorrect.
Thanks insider2 for posting this. I am learning from your posts!
We agree, something originally on a coin's surface or accidentally sealed with a coin can be a problem later.
We all are learning new things every day here. Check in on this thread tomorrow.
Completely agree, especially on the being stable part. Many AT'd coins continue turning darker and darker rather quickly even in a mostly airtight stable environment. Have seen quite a few colorful AT'd pieces look awful after just a year or two.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
One example I had pictures of, and in my possession when it turned......................
Holy smokes that silver eagle
Do you have photos? It would be great to have more reference points.
Great example @bolivarshagnasty! I heard AT can turn but was always curious what it actually looked like.
Will AT that is turning in a slab affect any of the coins in other slabs around it?
From what I have been seeing on a few sites along with auctions, The mania with toned silver eagles seems to be strong, with seemingly strong Money being paid. Perhaps fewer are being graded? Some, imo, are very attractive while most are not. I avoid them all anyhow.
I think one of the main reasons this is happening is that there are no consequences. If there's nothing to cause someone to stop their activity, doing it more will allow them to get better.
As long as people keep paying moon money for color, they will keep producing. This is definitely one of the positives about these boards where others can see actual photos of what to look for.
Great post.
What I indicated is that it is impossible to have a chemical reaction without the chemicals present. This is true whether the process is AT or NT. If you have a coin that has a foreign substance (even invisible) on it, it can react over time - WHETHER AT OR NT. If you have a coin that has NO foreign substance on it and is only in contact with air, the same chemistry will occur over time (usually oxidation at that point) - WHETHER AT OR NT.
This is only true if they fail to rinse the toning solution off the coin.
With all due respect, this is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of chemical fact. You can NOT do chemistry without chemicals. Toning will darken over time due to continuing oxidation but whether NT or AT is irrelevant. If you are observing what appears to be more rapid oxidation on some coins rather than others, it is not due to AT or NT origins but either the presence of a foreign substance (which may not be visible) or because the oxide or sulfide is less dense which will affect the surface oxidation/sulfurization rate.
I will also point out that the presence of any oxide or sulfide, AT or NT, can actually increase the rate of further oxidation or sulfurization (if oxygen or sulfur are present, of course) because the new oxide grows on the lattice of the old oxide. But again, this is less about AT or NT and more about the presence of the oxide or sulfide layer itself.
And, I would beware confirmation bias. When you have a coin that changes over time, do you always assume it must have been AT to begin with? Or do you know that it was AT because you did it or you know the person who did do it? I mean, do you like AT coins so much that you intentionally buy them and watch them change?
A LOT of AT processes are simple accelerations of natural NT processes. If you put a coin in an album for 30 years in your living room it will tone. If you take that same album and put it in a 250 degree oven overnight, it will tone DUE TO THE SAME CHEMISTRY, just accelerated by Temperature. [See Arrhenius equation.]
This is why I HATE AT/NT designations. Beautiful blue tones on coins are, in some sense, ALL ARTIFICIAL. They are not due to the coin themselves but the environment the coin was stored in which was typically high in sulfur. This could be "clean" desert air, a musty album, or a coin doctors jar of hydrogen sulfide gas. The only difference is usuall time.
As @ricko has sometimes said, he thinks of AT as "accelerated toning" not artificial. And he has an excellent point.
This is true, to an extent. I would say that LeChatliers principle is more prevalent in doctoring than Arrhenius though. Reason being is that Arrhenius really only works in practice in complex systems for about +/- 30C max. This translates to a 6x acceleration (conservative, could be as high as 64 but usually isn't). Most doctors don't have the patience for that. Beyond that limit, the balance of what reactions are dominant changes. Ever tried making a shiny cent a deep natural red using accelerated temps? Does not work, because CuO production is more dominant at higher temps.
Other than that small critique I agree with most of what you said and it seems correct. I don't believe either silver sulfide or copper oxide are autocatalytic but I could be wrong.
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When we were doing Bellcore testing of telecom devices, the protocol testing would model 30-years in the field in a 2000 hour 85C/85% RH test. That's about a factor of 100 time acceleration. Now, it was not strictly a Temperature affect as they increased the humidity to tropical levels as well. I think you have a similar factor at play with coin doctoring: increase the temperature and the sulfur concentration and away you go...
There is some evidence for autocatalysis of silver sulfide that I could find:
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19275218
I did not find anything similar for copper sulfide, but I didn't spend a lot of time looking. I don't know for copper, but it is fairly common for surface treated metals (oxidized) to be more or less reactive than bare metal surfaces.
What you say about the change in dominance is true. It reminds me of a little coin doctoring experiment I tried 20 years ago. Thanks for making me laugh thinking about it. The NATURAL color of a copper cent is not copper it's copper sulfide. Well somewhere around 900 C, copper sulfide becomes the preferred compound over copper oxide. LOL. So, I figured it was at least possible that heating the coin to 900+C is an oxygen poor environment might change the color. LOL. I wish I had pictures of those poor cents when they came out of the oven. They did change color, became lighter colored in some parts but scorched beyond belief in other parts. LMAO. It even looked like I had annealed the metal to the point that Lincolns portrait had flattened out, although that could have been just my imagination.
In general, I 100% agree with what you are saying. The better coin doctors are probably using something like 150 degrees Fahrenheit for weeks rather than trying to speed the process up to days or hours. Many of them are probably also using reactive solutions to speed things up. The latter approach may well leave chemical residues behind if they don't clean properly which would result in continuing reaction over time.
I'm NOT saying to anyone that there is not "artificial" or "accelerated" toning going on and that all of those experiments yield surfaces identical to slow "natural" toning. There are too many variables and too many sloppy doctors out there. My point is that you can "artificially" create sulfide layers that are identical to "natural" sulfide layers and they will behave identically. Chemical compounds don't KNOW anything. They are just dumb molecules that bump into things and sometimes react with them. Silver sulfide doesn't know that it formed over 100 years or 100 minutes. It doesn't even know it's silver sulfide, frankly.
My last post was getting too long, but to continue this fascinating topic...
The coin doctoring isn't that different than the curating that is being discussed in the Central America thread on this board. And all the same caveats exist. A sloppy curating of a coin will yield an unstable surface or a surface that shows evidence of tampering. The Central American coins for the most part look to have natural surface, even though you could make the case that they are "artificially cleaned".
Failure to properly rinse the curating solutions from the coins could yield unstable surfaces which will change over time. But proper curating which has been going on for centuries with ancient coins will yield stable surfaces.
Shipwreck coins are "doctored" but are acceptably doctored. In the end, I think @Insider2 's point is well taken: if you like the way the coin looks...
Agree with you 100% on this. A talented chemist could, with some effort, duplicate a lot of the highly desirable "natural" toning patterns out there. Trying to determine at vs nt can be very difficult.
Great post. I'm always amazed at the collective knowledge on this forum.
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Yes AT has been around the block a few times now and they are improving at every turn.
Thank you for this special thread👌🏻
Here is the image of genuine edge toning I promised:
This is the promotional item it came out of. Note the three layers of different quality material inside the hole (hard to see is the paper thin white surface of the holder). The gray cardboard produced the darkest color.
Awesome eye for detail @Insider2!
That's exactly what I would have expected and I would label that "NT" not "AT", but to each their own.
This thread is way over my head....makes no sense to me and I did not benefit from it at all. I suppose if I was a dealer and looked at hundreds of coins each week, it might make some sense. As a collector you just lost me with so little information in the OP. I don't guess why or what for....I just want to learn.
bob
@Hemispherical said: "Awesome eye for detail."
Thanks. but it's just a stereo microscope.
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I would've never considered the edge, thank you for the informative thread.
Edges are the coin's third side. If you don't check edges, you'll possibly miss damage, mount removals, and repairs.
In the old days (before prong inserts) edge problems mattered less. That's because if you removed the coin for any reason and the edge was damaged, tough luck. Guarantee no longer valid. I remember cracking out a gem MS-65 Grant gold dollar graded MS-60 (licking my chops at my good fortune) only to find a large test cut!
The coin had been net graded by the TPGS.
I learned a good lesson: If a coin looks under graded to you you are probably missing something. The TPGS guys are not blind dummies!