The Art of the Low Ball Offer....is there really an art to this...???
SurfinxHI
Posts: 2,464 ✭✭✭✭✭
...or do folks just think it is a great way to do business? Eh, I'm ranting a bit (and reeling a bit) from yet another low-ball offer on another platform (e.g. Instagram, the capital of the low ball players at the moment -- though I could be wrong, maybe the bay is still the king of that), and it got me to thinking about this question. Is there really a polite way to low ball someone, without leaving the other party feeling like they are trying to get used? I can think of two approaches where this could work:
1) A published (advertised) buy price for any specific set of attributes (e.g. I'll buy your 1921 peace dollars in MS 63 for $280 each, if they are in NGC or PCGS holders). I think this approach is pretty much what the big boys do, and their buy prices typically set the wholesale/dealer to dealer pricing for various coins. (maybe this isn't a low ball offer -- maybe this is the market....)
2) For an unsolicited low ball offer, I could see starting the conversation out with something like this: Hi. I see that you have a 1878 S DMPL MS 65 Morgan for sale. Its a nice coin. If you don't get your asking price, I'd be more than happy to pay you peanuts for it, if you want. Please let me know if you would like to accept this elephant of an offer!
Now mind you, I watch what the coin prices are in the areas that I primarily deal with. And I watch the players on multiple platforms. And sometimes I can see what they are buying, from whom (if you watch closely), and at what price . And then I can see them relist the materials as well. I've seen my own coins make several rounds from various players. So, if I can do this, and I'm not a whiz kid by any means in this on-line coin world, I assume they can as well. So therefore, you know what I'm selling, and that I'm doing it for real....so then why the uncalled for, uncouth, low ball?
Of course, you all can say, well, maybe that was just opening up a negotiation. I think I've seen a billion threads on here about polite and unpolite ways to do that. So, if you want to negotiate, start with a nice question, like "is that your best price" "can you do any better on the price" "can you offer me, your most excellent repeat customer, a discount?"
Ok, I throw this out to you all. IS there an art to the low-ball offer? If so, are you willing to share your trade secrets on the matter? 
Surf
Comments
Interesting topic. I guess what's "low ball" is in the eye of the beholder. On most coins I try to offer less than full retail but more than what the average coin shop would pay. Is this a "low ball" offer? Depending on how badly I want the coin and the dealer's counter-offer, I'll play or pass. When I do make an offer, I certainly don't want to insult the dealer with a ridiculously low-ball offer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
My wife is the queen of this. She has absolutely no problem with offering $30 on a $200 item.
The problem is that occasionally a seller will be desperate and will accept the insane lowball. I told her I'd block her if she made an offer like that for one of my items. She doesn't care. There's almost always more stuff to buy out there. She says, "You never know unless you try."
I try to be a bit more reasonable with my offers...
What about the relative lowball. This is usually where I bid low. A coin listed at 4x retail. Coin is admittedly pq and I offer retail +x or say 2x. Seller thinks it’s an insult and counters with 1% off or something absurd that doesn’t warrant listing it as OBO to begin with.
There is indeed an "art" to lowballing. There is a difference between a legitimate bid and an insulting one. Knowing the boundaries is the key.
People play this game all the time. Some play it better than others, but play it they do.
It's best to play it tactfully, with someone who understands the "rules".
You play it well, Perry.
Pete
The art of the lowball offer requires that the buyer correctly perceive the motivation behind the sellers wish to sell. The buyer needs to judge just how desperately the seller wants to get rid of the items being offered.
Here comes the heir to the coin collection. Her first words to the potential buyer are: These were my late husband's. How much cash can I get for them? Lowball offer incoming!
My 2¢ worth:
RULE #1: If you are offended by a low-ball offer, get out of whatever business you're in. Business people should not be that thin-skinned. Business is all about give and take.
RULE #2: If you are a business person, you generally put a huge markup on your coins as a starting point with the expectation that the prospective buyer will attempt to work you down. Well, that works both ways. If you can ask 30+ percent over retail for a coin, don't be offended if a prospective buyer offers 30+ percent below retail. Turn about is fair play.
RULE #3: If you're not interested in the chance of a low-ball offer, decide where you need to be on a coin, price it accordingly, and state that your price is firm. This applies to dealers AND collectors.
And last, and most importantly...
RULE #4: Collectors are willing to pay a fair price for a coin. Being fair with your pricing is by far the best way to eliminate the low-ball offer. The same applies to dealers paying a collector a fair price for their coins.
Cheers
Bob
The closest to an art is when you can find information about the type of offers a seller is willing to take. For example, on eBay you can check a particular seller’s previously sold items to get a feeling for the offers they have accepted in the past (watchcount is a good tool to help with this). If more than a few of their items sold for 50% off, then you can gather that a 50% offer might work. However, if they are only going 10-15% off, then offering 50% off is unlikely to work.
Instagram has its fair share of lowballers (some of them are equally poor on the sell side-meaning they won’t budge from their own sky high prices). You just have to learn who those people are and know that a deal is unlikely to happen with them (if it’s an unsolicited offer just decline/stick firm to your desired price).
I deal in offers every day. I have been selling on ebay for 20+ years, and swap meets for much longer. and make my living off of horse trading, so to speak.
Every item I have on ebay is set up with with the best offer function, and there is no bottom auto reject. I do get "stupid" offers, but I can just decline, no big deal. My feelings are not hurt, I just move on. Some things I will accept 10% off, others maybe 40% off, as many of the things I sell do not have enough data points to accurately set a price. If it has been for sale on ebay for a couple months, no hits, then it is stale, and time to get rid of it. Often these are things that I consider I have $0 into, as I bought a bunch of stuff from someone, totalled up the $$ for the items in the lot I wanted, and the "unwanted" items I mentally offer $0 for, so any sale is pure profit.
One the other side, I will offer what I think is fair, some wiggle room, and if I am turned down, I just walk away, no blood, no foul. You never know what floats people's boats, and where they will wind up. Some are in the business, some just want out. Recently, at a swap meet, I saw an item I have a nominal interest in, asking price was $300, which was about $50 over the going price on ebay. A lot of his stuff was similarly priced. A friend was more into that item, and I knew he would want to pay no more than $150 or so for it, but I could not get ahold of him, so I passed. The next morning, another friend was loading up the item, and happy as a clam. He had bought it for $30 !!!!
One technique I use is to set the "range" of the offer and counter. For example, say something is "asked" at $800. The range is in the $100. If I offer $600, it is still set to $100. If I offer $650, the unit of measurement is set to $50, so the counter will be $750, maybe $700.
If I offer $615, that provokes thought. Why is he, on an opening offer, skipping the $100, the $50's, even the $20, and $10's ? What is he seeing, and more importantly, why has he already jumped to a $5 increment? HMMM Hmmmm.
I find that really shortens up the back and forth, and the person either declines (I am fine with that) or maybe will counter at $625, figuring if I am already at the $5 increment, no use it going back to $700 or $750, so a deal is made.
Exception to the negotiating rules: If you ask me my "BEST PRICE" then negotiation is over. If I have it for $625, and you ask me my best price, and I say $580, right now, and we are done. If you come back with $550, i ignore it, and the $580 best price is off the table. You asked a number, I gave a number, and you, searching for the right word "disrespected" my "integrity" (sounds too harsh, but don't have the right words) so, bottom line, that was a 1 time price, and it is gone.
I have paid asking price, and I have made low offers. It depends on the coin... If my offer is rejected, I move on - no second offers. What I am willing to pay is my offer... beyond that, we do not do business. Cheers, RickO
As I have make an offer turned on in a good portion of my eBay listings, I get a fair amount of lowballs. Some are people just using Redbook and aren't ill intentioned. Some are just looking for rips. Either way, I see no reason to get annoyed. As I see it, offers = eyeballs on my listings. When I get a bunch of offers on one item I can be pretty sure it will sell. Plus, it's business, not personal.
Also, I would add that margins don't matter to lowballers. My margins are modest and I get half FMV offers all the time. Somewhat depends on the obscurity of the piece of course.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Low Ball offers have probably been around since mankind first started buying/selling/trading with each other. It is a matter of common sense... you try to get what you want/need for as little of your resources needed.
The value of any item is whatever a willing buyer and a willing seller decide upon. Using deceit, etc., is a different matter.
I welcome all offers. Whenever I get a low ball offer, I just ignore and try not to think any more of it. If someone starts to get annoying,... that is what blocking is for, on ebay anyways.
Was not “low-balling” originally a term a seller uses to entice a potential buyer with a ridiculously low price. When the seller gets a “bite” s/he then changes to a higher price... similar to a bait-and-switch.
Of course, the term has evolved.
Are Red Book prices "low-ball"?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Had a rare Newcomb up for auction.
Buyer gave an opening inquiry. Told him to make offer.
He pointed condition issues but his offer wasn't insulting just not enough.
It is so uncommon just gonna let the auction ride.
Typically give me anything in the ball park and its sold
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I don't respond to lowball offers. I like them though. When other potential offers see a pending offer they tend to make better offers. Sometimes they hit the BIN so they don't lose out to a pending offer you never intended to accept.
Some points of clarification for me I guess are needed. I don’t add 400% mark up to a sheet price on my offerings. And by looking at my prices, a buyer can see that if they are knowledgeable. And those are specifically the buyers I’m talking about.
A low ball offer to me is 30% behind wholesale, when the status of the seller as a legitimate dealer is known.
To Bob’s comments below.
1 eh. Maybe. It depends. What I am talking about is how one can be classy and still accomplish the same goals, without the thick or thin skin needing to come into play.
See my comments above. Answer to that is no, as to your rule rule 4, below.
That could work, but, as to the topic at hand, is there a way to still classily low ball a firm offer.
I typically agree with this. In my experience, It’s the newbie “wannabe” pro dealers that are often the worst offenders...
I agree with BuffalolronTail. PerryHall plays well in the sandbox.
Red book is what it is.....often, like many other price guides, I find it overstating the market value of many issues.
No idea why the type font and size changed. Weird.
You used the “#” which changes the font size
@SurfinxHI
Other than QVC or HSC, who do you know that puts a 400% markup on their coins? I never stated that.
Cheers
Bob
I would also add to Rule #4 that fair pricing is the best way to ensure repeat customers. I'd rather make many sales at a moderate profit than one huge score and listen to nothing but crickets for the next few months.
They can be, sometimes they are too high. It depends on the coin. If the coin has a gold beaned pcgs holder and you get quoted Redbook, that would be probably be a low-ball. However, my point was that just because I view it as a low price doesn't mean that the offerer is deliberately trying to low-ball me. I should have been clearer.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
Thin skin, Bob, thin skin....
I didn’t say you did...just adding emphasis. Sometimes 30% on top of retail can be an astronomical % above dealer to dealer....
Thin skin? Me? Hahahahahahahaha. A croc has nothing on me.
Actually, I though you either misread or made a typo.
Cheers
Bob
If you price competitively, within 10-15% of what you are seeking on an appropriately graded piece—then no need for a low ball offer....which I consider to be let’s say 40% or more below my asking price.
Let’s be clear - those who routinely offer low ball numbers, clearly stupid bids, ought to be shopping at the flea market-not at the coin show.
Wow, I see this all the time. I HAVE NEVER BEEN INSULTED BY PEOPLE OFFERING ME MONEY. NEVER, EVER.
That being said, I am A NEGOTIATOR. When I go to Krogers, I negotiate buying a case of cans instead of a can. I am not afraid to ASK, PLEAD, BEG , WHEEDLE, WHINE. I have worked hard for every penny I have ever received. It's mine, I earned it and when I spend it I want the best and most value I can possibly get. I am not in the least interested in somethings value or what you paid for an item or what the book value or what previous auction prices are. I am not the least interested in pissing you off, or being rude. You are trying to get the Most of my money and I'm trying to give you the least. You have a job and I have a job, who's the best will determine how much I'm going to pay. The first rule of POWER NEGOTIATION IS You must be willing to walk away. If you are the seller, Walk or give a counter offer. If I am the buyer, WALK or give a counter offer. You have paid good money to come to a show or paid rent, You know your cost of an item or you should. You know what you're willing to sell it for. A LOW BALL bid is a flag. I'm interested, and I want to buy. That's what you paid to get. Would you rather I just look at your prices and WALK away. No!!! I've given you an open gambit. How could you be offended. I like your item, I like you, I like the Show, I just don't like your price. How is that offensive.
Let's say that I am at a gun show as a dealer and some guy comes up looking at a WW II Helmet, worth $350.00 (my price) and low balls me for $200.00. How I handle that determines whether I have a sale or not. He's interested, I would say, "Look, that's pretty low, It is authentic, I haven't seen another in over a year, I could adjust the price if you are ready to buy right here, right now. If we can get to an agreeable price, are you READY to buy it NOW? His answer determines whether we continue our negotiations or whether I walk. Was he rude , who cares, I'm not looking to marry the guy let alone date the cheapskate. Did he offend me, who cares, I'm not looking to marry him, just sell him that helmet I only paid $45.00 for.
Toughen up your thin skin and hone up your negotiating skills A buyer has given you a SIGN he is willing to buy something. That is why you are here, That's why you paid $ 40/ $50 a table, why you took the time to set up.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
I think the "Lowball Theory" is a pretty close match to the "SPAM Email" and "Telemarketer" theories of operation.
You don't NEED to be successful 100% of the time! That one successful transaction in 100 (or 1000, or 10,000), will pay for your efforts.
Best just to ignore them. Maybe they won't target you again in the future.
How about when someone lowballs on a silver or gold coin for half of its melt? and they know they are and being serious.
I don't take it personally but I find that grounds for a banning as it is fairly disrespectful and I would prefer to not deal with someone of that character.
all around collector of many fine things
Personally a true lowball offer is a great way to shoot down your credibility.
stupid reply edited.
It's also a good way to get yourself blocked on eBay.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I lowball about 1/2 the stuff I buy.
I have no pride and don't care.
You can laugh if you want.
My Saint Set
LOL! I had a guy inquire about a nice shell I was selling that had ended. Originally I had it priced at $275.00 and later reduced it to $225.00 with free shipping. It's a pretty good sized shell 16 inches and can't be shipped for peanuts. Guy had me taking pictures left and right, in detail etc.
Finally the message comes: Will you take a $100 for it?
Me: LOL No!
Almost a week passes and a different person asks me about it. I told him yes I still have it and will relist it for you if you want it. We had already had a conversation about another shell and I had told him I had already reduced my prices and if can't get that I would rather just keep them.
Yeap...he bought it last week.
This morning I received a message from the other guy asking if I would take $150...and yaddy yada about that's what they sell for. My thoughts were well yes....if you buy it from Asia and $40 or $50 shipping for a shell of lesser quality.
I just sent him a link to the ended listing.
He replied back the link I sent was to the ended listing. He didn't notice the big sold across the picture!
I replied back that's the listing where I sold it last week. And now? The wonderful sound of silence!
Ya'll would be surprised how many times this happens on ebay….Most especially with my Barber Half's.
What about the art of the dealer's low ball offer for your coins? We read often on these boards that the key to the coin business is all about the buy side - that is the better the rip, the more successful the dealer will be.
I wouldn't put all dealers in that category, but felt this was a point to be made flipping the script.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
With coins listed publicly for sale, if I feel my offer is going to be less that 20 percent lower than ask, I don't make an offer. Anything lower than that usually gets rejected. If I really need to lowball something, I probably don't have much interest in adding it to my collection. I'm plenty happy with a courtesy discount that covers fees and shipping, I like that.
I was recently contacted by someone selling classic VW parts and wanted to know what I would give them for the lot. It was a group of wrong model / used parts I don't need that I picked up for trade stock. I guess I low balled them, but they called me out of the blue. A deal was struck. Guess I offered more than everyone else as they were on Craigs for weeks. I suppose this is what coin dealers feel like when someone bellies up to their table.
Is this mainly regarding eBay sales? I have a few trusted dealers I work with but rarely challenge their price. Maybe I need to start if that's the norm!
My dad often repeated three things to me.
Most coin sellers are retailers and even though prices realized may not reflect that, you are dealing with the public.
I have never been insulted by an offer, and on rare occasion with an item that is tough to put a price on, have sold for a significant discount to the ask.
Not a fan of folks trying to tell me why a fairly priced coin is grossly overpriced, but dealling online makes for an easy dismissal of non serious tire kickers.
Yep take your coins into any brick and mortar, you will quickly learn all about the art of lowball offers.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
If you lowball me twice on the same coin, I will block you.