@lkenefic said:
wow... I said 64 because of the cheek hit and the digs under the "U" in E PLURIBUS. Maybe the grader gave more weight to the reverse of this coin which is free of major distractions...
That would almost certainly not be the case.
Clearly...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
Very late to the game. I may have seen this post before now but I mostly stopped playing GTG as soon as I FINALLY got one correct after several tries.
Here is what I have found that may help others. There are two GTG posters. One likes to post attractive coins with some unseen problem or the uncommon under graded coin (so the coin is graded lower than most guess) to make the TPGS look bad. The other poster posts coins that most of us under grade. The older we are the more reluctant we are to use the higher grades.
I personally have this problem. When I learned to grade, the highest grade was PR/MS-65! The only higher grade was 70 and they did not exist (although they actually did for "modern" coins dated 1960's and 1970's). Today, we all need to remember that there are still five grade levels above 65. Ultra conservative grading is a hard habit to break.
I looked at the OP's coin and saw MS-66 CAC immediately. I would have still been too low! So we have a common coin in high grade with "special color" that negates several marks = 67. I agree with PCGS on this one.
While keeping our personal tight standards, perhaps the lesson to take from this coin is to loosen up a lot when playing GTG.
PS Anyone who guessed MS-63 or 64 is way off modern times. This is the problem I find from a typical student. They are very critical at first and don't understand the "color bump" coins can get.
I was in the ms64 camp on this coin mostly due to the reeding marks that showed-to me anyway-prominently at first glance. The attractive toning would make me overlook the gouge or planchet flaw on the cheek. A coin that with an in hand view, I would consider for ms66 Money, but definitely would keep walking at ms67 Money cac or not.Jmho
Maybe just a coincidence but I've seen a number of GTG's in the past couple of weeks on this board that sure seem over graded to me. As I said before, these are good examples of buy the coin and not the holder or label.
@Luxor said:
Certainly don't mean to hijack the thread, but if anyone's interested here's another prime example of musical chairs grading and stickers:
I believe that coin is now in a 68 holder (no CAC).
@DollarAfterDollar said:
Why would someone remove a coin from an MS 67 + holder and settle for reholdering at MS 65 +? Has the defective brain function taken over?
And then sell it?
The 65+ is the older holder. The green holder is a 30th anniversary not an OGH.
@Luxor said:
Certainly don't mean to hijack the thread, but if anyone's interested here's another prime example of musical chairs grading and stickers:
This is the type of post that got a wonderful resource for coin authentication - the old CoinFacts - changed and RUINED!
Grading is subjective. There may be something on the coin that was missed the first time that called for that much of a drop in grade.
@DollarAfterDollar said:
Why would someone remove a coin from an MS 67 + holder and settle for reholdering at MS 65 +? Has the defective brain function taken over?
@Luxor said:
Certainly don't mean to hijack the thread, but if anyone's interested here's another prime example of musical chairs grading and stickers:
This is the type of post that got a wonderful resource for coin authentication - the old CoinFacts - changed and RUINED!
Grading is subjective. There may be something on the coin that was missed the first time that called for that much of a drop in grade.
@DollarAfterDollar said:
Why would someone remove a coin from an MS 67 + holder and settle for reholdering at MS 65 +? Has the defective brain function taken over?
@Luxor said:
Certainly don't mean to hijack the thread, but if anyone's interested here's another prime example of musical chairs grading and stickers:
This is the type of post that got a wonderful resource for coin authentication - the old CoinFacts - changed and RUINED!
Don’t blame the messenger for finding fault with the system. If the crackout/upgrade artists were smart enough, they would send in the old labels and have the pop reports corrected and have the old pictures removed. Or there could be some consistency...but no it’s just easier to blame the pesky average joe collector...how dare they bring that up!
@Luxor said:
Certainly don't mean to hijack the thread, but if anyone's interested here's another prime example of musical chairs grading and stickers:
This is the type of post that got a wonderful resource for coin authentication - the old CoinFacts - changed and RUINED!
Don’t blame the messenger for finding fault with the system. If the crackout/upgrade artists were smart enough, they would send in the old labels and have the pop reports corrected and have the old pictures removed. Or there could be some consistency...but no it’s just easier to blame the pesky members...how dare they bring that up!
There are always "smarter than thou" folks around. Here are some things to consider.
It can be demonstrated that GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE.
It can be demonstrated that GRADES HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME mostly upward.
ditto FACTORS THAT CHANGE EYE APPEAL CHANGE.
ditto TPGS WANT IMPORTANT COINS IN THEIR SLAB often graded higher.
ditto EXAMPLES EXIST OF OVER/UNDER/CORRECTLY GRADED slabs.
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
PS Every coin that is graded by a TPGS has millions of eyes assessing that grade. In my experience, most of those evaluations are "wacky." Example: Grading a "lock" MS-66 only MS-63, MS-64, or MS-65 that is considered to be an MS-67 by a top TPGS to reflect its COMMERCIAL VALUE
@Luxor said:
Certainly don't mean to hijack the thread, but if anyone's interested here's another prime example of musical chairs grading and stickers:
This is the type of post that got a wonderful resource for coin authentication - the old CoinFacts - changed and RUINED!
Don’t blame the messenger for finding fault with the system. If the crackout/upgrade artists were smart enough, they would send in the old labels and have the pop reports corrected and have the old pictures removed. Or there could be some consistency...but no it’s just easier to blame the pesky members...how dare they bring that up!
There are always "smarter than thou" folks around. Here are some things to consider.
It can be demonstrated that GRADING IS SUBJECTIVE.
It can be demonstrated that GRADES HAVE CHANGED OVER TIME mostly upward.
ditto FACTORS THAT CHANGE EYE APPEAL CHANGE.
ditto TPGS WANT IMPORTANT COINS IN THEIR SLAB often graded higher.
ditto EXAMPLES EXIST OF OVER/UNDER/CORRECTLY GRADED slabs.
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
PS Every coin that is graded by a TPGS has millions of eyes assessing that grade. In my experience, most of those evaluations are "wacky." Example: Grading a "lock" MS-66 only MS-63, MS-64, or MS-65 that is considered to be an MS-67 by a top TPGS to reflect its COMMERCIAL VALUE
You glanced over the main points.
Plus something subjective can still be consistent. And the coin that went from a 65+ to a 68 happened in around two years (all are new PCGS holders); that makes your points 2-4 largely irrelevant.
I own the latest Morgan posted that was once in a 5+ holder... I acquired it in an 8 holder at one of the PCGS invitationals in Vegas... Which btw I highly recommend if you want to see some of the top dealers in the industry, have a great time at our hosts breakfasts and lunches, see some great coins and take in one of Legends Auctions... I loved the Morgan "Ninja Star" immediately and sent it in for trueviews and my attribution... Anyone interested I have been doing short vids on my Instagram account where you can view the coin in one of our vids there which gives a whole different dimension.... Look for auroraborealiscollection and also check out PCGS`s account if you want to see some ultra amazing coins and good reads... AB
@U1chicago said: "You glanced over the main points. Plus something subjective can still be consistent.
LOL. Yes, consistently INCONSISTENT and all over the place. I'll bet that is why the word "subjective" has a different meaning than "consistent." But what do I know, I didn't major in English.
@U1chicago continued: "And the coin that went from a 65+ to a 68 happened in around two years (all are new PCGS holders); that makes your points 2-4 largely irrelevant."
Not at all. Two years is a long time. During those two years, the market price for coins could have been exploding. I was an active collector during a period of two years when I could overpay for a coin and sell it within a month or less for double what it cost! The simple fact it this. Commercial grading as practiced by the TPGS attempts to put a value on a coin. They even publish a price guide. Let's get this straight, an independent group tells you what the coin they graded should sell for in each grade? Now, while coins may not be a good investment, past history shows both ups and downs yet a general increase in value over time. If the value increases - SO MUST ITS GRADE. That's very unfortunate as IMHO, equating value and grade is the biggest cause of BOTH SUBJECTIVITY and INCONSISTANCY in the present grading system.
Grade the coin consistently using an unchanging standard and let others price it = Oh, that's the old, defunct, Technical Grading System used before ANA moved their authentication service to CO.
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
That is a very concerning statement. I'd like to know the reason why it changed 2.5 grades in as many years. It sure raises a lot of questions as to who, when and how.
I was an inspector for Boing A Craft when done I had to stamp my work with
a # and name .If something happened I would have been ..Accountable. To some degree..
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
That is a very concerning statement. I'd like to know the reason why it changed 2.5 grades in as many years. It sure raises a lot of questions as to who, when and how.
It’s especially concerning in light of the examples we’ve seen posted by other members on here where they tried multiple times to resubmit-only to then watch the coin show up in a higher grade shortly after being sold.
Isn't it interesting how there always seems to be the same 3 or 4 individuals who feel the need to both constantly defend the grading and decal services whose opinions seemingly change like the weather, as well as "enlighten" everyone else here and explain why a certain grade changed 1 pont, 2 points, 3 points, etc and the reason for such when the reason for such is obvious and apparent to all.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
That is a very concerning statement. I'd like to know the reason why it changed 2.5 grades in as many years. It sure raises a lot of questions as to who, when and how.
You have proven yourself to be very astute. I wish that were the case with others...
@Insider2 said:
If the value increases - SO MUST ITS GRADE.
This is demonstrably false.
I'm sorry you are not informed. Any further discussion on this subject with you will make me look like a donkey. If you wish to become more informed, check the grade history of the 1870-S Half Dime, the Brasher Doubloon. or the 1804 dollars for extreme examples that prove my point.
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
That is a very concerning statement. I'd like to know the reason why it changed 2.5 grades in as many years. It sure raises a lot of questions as to who, when and how.
You have proven yourself to be very astute. I wish that were the case with others...
@Insider2 said:
If the value increases - SO MUST ITS GRADE.
This is demonstrably false.
I'm sorry you are not informed. Any further discussion on this subject with you will make me look like a donkey. If you wish to become more informed, check the grade history of the 1870-S Half Dime, the Brasher Doubloon. or the 1804 dollars for extreme examples that prove my point.
I don’t contest that gradeflation happens but what you wrote is not remotely the same thing. Demand (and therefore prices) can change even if the grades don’t.
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
That is a very concerning statement. I'd like to know the reason why it changed 2.5 grades in as many years. It sure raises a lot of questions as to who, when and how.
It’s especially concerning in light of the examples we’ve seen posted by other members on here where they tried multiple times to resubmit-only to then watch the coin show up in a higher grade shortly after being sold.
There is a very famous case of this happening. One possible solution was to forbid TPGS employees from buying or selling coins. In truth, there is no way to prevent a greedy, intelligent, and "connected" person from making a few bucks bypassing any rules or safeguards. However, I only know of one dishonest TPGS grader (no longer in the industry) who crossed a line and disgraced himself.
@david3142 said: "I don’t contest that gradeflation happens but what you wrote is not remotely the same thing. Demand (and therefore prices) can change even if the grades don’t." This is very true however prices go up and down. GRADES ONLY GO UP!
@Insider2 said: @david3142 said: "I don’t contest that gradeflation happens but what you wrote is not remotely the same thing. Demand (and therefore prices) can change even if the grades don’t." This is very true however prices go up and down. GRADES ONLY GO UP!
Even the part about “Grades only go up” isn’t true. I believe @Wabbit2313 has spoken of multiple examples of coins downgrading recently (even some that used to reside in older generation holders).
@Insider2 said: @david3142 said: "I don’t contest that gradeflation happens but what you wrote is not remotely the same thing. Demand (and therefore prices) can change even if the grades don’t." This is very true however prices go up and down. GRADES ONLY GO UP!
Even the part about “Grades only go up” isn’t true. I believe @Wabbit2313 has spoken of multiple examples of coins downgrading recently (even some that used to reside in older generation holders).
AFAIK, the TPGS go through periods of tight and loose. You know that. Send a raw coin in that has already been grade once or nine times and you start at Zero each time. If it goes down, you better check your grading skills.
Anyway, thanks for your example but I'd rather have you post an example of a coin graded by service A, returned to service A in the original holder and downgraded. Yes, it happens on rare occasions but not enough times to even write about. Thus, as I posted, grades go up over time.
PS there are a very few "crack out artists" who make the cut. Even fewer of them post here.
@Insider2 said: @david3142 said: "I don’t contest that gradeflation happens but what you wrote is not remotely the same thing. Demand (and therefore prices) can change even if the grades don’t." This is very true however prices go up and down. GRADES ONLY GO UP!
Even the part about “Grades only go up” isn’t true. I believe @Wabbit2313 has spoken of multiple examples of coins downgrading recently (even some that used to reside in older generation holders).
AFAIK, the TPGS go through periods of tight and loose. You know that. Send a raw coin in that has already been grade once or nine times and you start at Zero each time. If it goes down, you better check your grading skills.
Anyway, thanks for your example but I'd rather have you post an example of a coin graded by service A, returned to service A in the original holder and downgraded. Yes, it happens on rare occasions but not enough times to even write about. Thus, as I posted, grades go up over time.
PS there are a very few "crack out artists" who make the cut. Even fewer of them post here.
You posted "GRADES ONLY GO UP"
That is a definitively false statement.
Even if rare (and it might not even be as rare as you think based on the amount of money paid out via Guarantee Resubmissions), you stated something that is simply not true. For a poster with your expertise, we all expect better.
And if you don't like that example (I'm not sure why, considering it was posted by a trustworthy longtime member), then read about the 2003 MS 70 Lincoln Cent.
AFAIK, the TPGS go through periods of tight and loose. You know that. Send a raw coin in that has already been grade once or nine times and you start at Zero each time. If it goes down, you better check your grading skills.
Seems if grading trends go up and down willy nilly then our grading skills don't mean diddly squat. It would also be horribly unfair and a disservice to submitters(read: customers) when hundreds or thousands of dollars can be the difference between grades.
AFAIK, the TPGS go through periods of tight and loose. You know that. Send a raw coin in that has already been grade once or nine times and you start at Zero each time. If it goes down, you better check your grading skills.
Seems if grading trends go up and down willy nilly then our grading skills don't mean diddly squat. It would also be horribly unfair and a disservice to submitters(read: customers) when hundreds or thousands of dollars can be the difference between grades.
Nonsense. The ONLY grading that counts (if you know what you are doing) IS DONE TO YOU OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS. My personal grading standard has NEVER CHANGED. I went through a rough spot after reading a "pre-publication galley" of Mr. Halperin's grading guide. It messed me up for several months until I got back on track - LOL.
So today, I still have my original standards; yet I have a good understanding of how commercial standards are applied by the TPGS.
Comments
Clearly...
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That’s not a hit on the cheek...it’s a planchet issue that wasn’t struck out. With that said, the two reed marks would preclude the grade of 67 IMO.
Very late to the game. I may have seen this post before now but I mostly stopped playing GTG as soon as I FINALLY got one correct after several tries.
Here is what I have found that may help others. There are two GTG posters. One likes to post attractive coins with some unseen problem or the uncommon under graded coin (so the coin is graded lower than most guess) to make the TPGS look bad. The other poster posts coins that most of us under grade. The older we are the more reluctant we are to use the higher grades.
I personally have this problem. When I learned to grade, the highest grade was PR/MS-65! The only higher grade was 70 and they did not exist (although they actually did for "modern" coins dated 1960's and 1970's). Today, we all need to remember that there are still five grade levels above 65. Ultra conservative grading is a hard habit to break.
I looked at the OP's coin and saw MS-66 CAC immediately. I would have still been too low! So we have a common coin in high grade with "special color" that negates several marks = 67. I agree with PCGS on this one.
While keeping our personal tight standards, perhaps the lesson to take from this coin is to loosen up a lot when playing GTG.
PS Anyone who guessed MS-63 or 64 is way off modern times. This is the problem I find from a typical student. They are very critical at first and don't understand the "color bump" coins can get.
I would have said 66 before the beautiful color. Looks right to me!
I was in the ms64 camp on this coin mostly due to the reeding marks that showed-to me anyway-prominently at first glance. The attractive toning would make me overlook the gouge or planchet flaw on the cheek. A coin that with an in hand view, I would consider for ms66 Money, but definitely would keep walking at ms67 Money cac or not.Jmho
67
Certainly don't mean to hijack the thread, but if anyone's interested here's another prime example of musical chairs grading and stickers:
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Maybe just a coincidence but I've seen a number of GTG's in the past couple of weeks on this board that sure seem over graded to me. As I said before, these are good examples of buy the coin and not the holder or label.
Why would someone remove a coin from an MS 67 + holder and settle for reholdering at MS 65 +? Has the defective brain function taken over?
And then sell it?
I believe that coin is now in a 68 holder (no CAC).
Horsepower sells cars torque wins races
Straight grades make coin sense plus signs bring money
The 65+ is the older holder. The green holder is a 30th anniversary not an OGH.
This is the type of post that got a wonderful resource for coin authentication - the old CoinFacts - changed and RUINED!
Grading is subjective. There may be something on the coin that was missed the first time that called for that much of a drop in grade.
Obviously, They were trying for an MS-68!
And they got the 68!
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/35823232
By the way, that one started as a 65+ (the bottom image was the first sale, the top is the second sale, and now it’s up to 68).
Don’t blame the messenger for finding fault with the system. If the crackout/upgrade artists were smart enough, they would send in the old labels and have the pop reports corrected and have the old pictures removed. Or there could be some consistency...but no it’s just easier to blame the pesky average joe collector...how dare they bring that up!
There are always "smarter than thou" folks around. Here are some things to consider.
Therefore the detective game some play is just that - "a game." There is often a reason grades are changed.
PS Every coin that is graded by a TPGS has millions of eyes assessing that grade. In my experience, most of those evaluations are "wacky." Example: Grading a "lock" MS-66 only MS-63, MS-64, or MS-65 that is considered to be an MS-67 by a top TPGS to reflect its COMMERCIAL VALUE
You glanced over the main points.
Plus something subjective can still be consistent. And the coin that went from a 65+ to a 68 happened in around two years (all are new PCGS holders); that makes your points 2-4 largely irrelevant.
I own the latest Morgan posted that was once in a 5+ holder... I acquired it in an 8 holder at one of the PCGS invitationals in Vegas... Which btw I highly recommend if you want to see some of the top dealers in the industry, have a great time at our hosts breakfasts and lunches, see some great coins and take in one of Legends Auctions... I loved the Morgan "Ninja Star" immediately and sent it in for trueviews and my attribution... Anyone interested I have been doing short vids on my Instagram account where you can view the coin in one of our vids there which gives a whole different dimension....
Look for auroraborealiscollection and also check out PCGS`s account if you want to see some ultra amazing coins and good reads... AB
@U1chicago said: "You glanced over the main points. Plus something subjective can still be consistent.
LOL. Yes, consistently INCONSISTENT and all over the place. I'll bet that is why the word "subjective" has a different meaning than "consistent." But what do I know, I didn't major in English.
@U1chicago continued: "And the coin that went from a 65+ to a 68 happened in around two years (all are new PCGS holders); that makes your points 2-4 largely irrelevant."
Not at all. Two years is a long time. During those two years, the market price for coins could have been exploding. I was an active collector during a period of two years when I could overpay for a coin and sell it within a month or less for double what it cost! The simple fact it this. Commercial grading as practiced by the TPGS attempts to put a value on a coin. They even publish a price guide. Let's get this straight, an independent group tells you what the coin they graded should sell for in each grade? Now, while coins may not be a good investment, past history shows both ups and downs yet a general increase in value over time. If the value increases - SO MUST ITS GRADE. That's very unfortunate as IMHO, equating value and grade is the biggest cause of BOTH SUBJECTIVITY and INCONSISTANCY in the present grading system.
Grade the coin consistently using an unchanging standard and let others price it = Oh, that's the old, defunct, Technical Grading System used before ANA moved their authentication service to CO.
That is a very concerning statement. I'd like to know the reason why it changed 2.5 grades in as many years. It sure raises a lot of questions as to who, when and how.
I was an inspector for Boing A Craft when done I had to stamp my work with
a # and name .If something happened I would have been ..Accountable. To some degree..
This is demonstrably false.
@Insider2 said “Not at all. Two years is a long time. During those two years, the market price for coins could have been exploding.”
Between 2016 and 2018 the prices weren’t exploding. And in a market where being “fresh” is important to some, two years is not at all a long time...
It’s especially concerning in light of the examples we’ve seen posted by other members on here where they tried multiple times to resubmit-only to then watch the coin show up in a higher grade shortly after being sold.
check hit ... a 67?
Isn't it interesting how there always seems to be the same 3 or 4 individuals who feel the need to both constantly defend the grading and decal services whose opinions seemingly change like the weather, as well as "enlighten" everyone else here and explain why a certain grade changed 1 pont, 2 points, 3 points, etc and the reason for such when the reason for such is obvious and apparent to all.
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
You have proven yourself to be very astute. I wish that were the case with others...
I'm sorry you are not informed. Any further discussion on this subject with you will make me look like a donkey. If you wish to become more informed, check the grade history of the 1870-S Half Dime, the Brasher Doubloon. or the 1804 dollars for extreme examples that prove my point.
I don’t contest that gradeflation happens but what you wrote is not remotely the same thing. Demand (and therefore prices) can change even if the grades don’t.
There is a very famous case of this happening. One possible solution was to forbid TPGS employees from buying or selling coins. In truth, there is no way to prevent a greedy, intelligent, and "connected" person from making a few bucks bypassing any rules or safeguards. However, I only know of one dishonest TPGS grader (no longer in the industry) who crossed a line and disgraced himself.
@david3142 said: "I don’t contest that gradeflation happens but what you wrote is not remotely the same thing. Demand (and therefore prices) can change even if the grades don’t." This is very true however prices go up and down. GRADES ONLY GO UP!
Owner of the 65 +, who should have gotten a much higher grade, is the one who really got screwed here! That coin is much nicer than 65 +!
Even the part about “Grades only go up” isn’t true. I believe @Wabbit2313 has spoken of multiple examples of coins downgrading recently (even some that used to reside in older generation holders).
See here for instance:
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1000629/show-grades-are-in-long-beach-tears-of-joy-or-tears-of-pain-and-suffering/p1
AFAIK, the TPGS go through periods of tight and loose. You know that. Send a raw coin in that has already been grade once or nine times and you start at Zero each time. If it goes down, you better check your grading skills.
Anyway, thanks for your example but I'd rather have you post an example of a coin graded by service A, returned to service A in the original holder and downgraded. Yes, it happens on rare occasions but not enough times to even write about. Thus, as I posted, grades go up over time.
PS there are a very few "crack out artists" who make the cut. Even fewer of them post here.
You posted "GRADES ONLY GO UP"
That is a definitively false statement.
Even if rare (and it might not even be as rare as you think based on the amount of money paid out via Guarantee Resubmissions), you stated something that is simply not true. For a poster with your expertise, we all expect better.
And if you don't like that example (I'm not sure why, considering it was posted by a trustworthy longtime member), then read about the 2003 MS 70 Lincoln Cent.
Gradeflation baby! Congrats
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
BOOMIN!™
My guess was 66
My YouTube Channel
Seems if grading trends go up and down willy nilly then our grading skills don't mean diddly squat. It would also be horribly unfair and a disservice to submitters(read: customers) when hundreds or thousands of dollars can be the difference between grades.
Collector, occasional seller
Nonsense. The ONLY grading that counts (if you know what you are doing) IS DONE TO YOU OWN PERSONAL STANDARDS. My personal grading standard has NEVER CHANGED. I went through a rough spot after reading a "pre-publication galley" of Mr. Halperin's grading guide. It messed me up for several months until I got back on track - LOL.
So today, I still have my original standards; yet I have a good understanding of how commercial standards are applied by the TPGS.