1949 S Lincoln cent rev clash?

Namvet69

1949 S Lincoln rev showing a series of raised vertical bars on the exergue and across and under ONE CENT. These bars appear to be in pairs. I can't imagine what created this anomaly. Your comments are appreciated. Peace Roy

Insider2

Neat coin, I've seen similar but less obvious lines on 1931-S cents. Something either had to abrade the die or form a pattern from a strike thru. Because one end of the line pattern is squared off, I'm going to guess the latter. Others may guess fed finger damage.

Namvet69

Thanks Skip. The uniformity is a puzzlement. Hadn't thought of a strike thru. The day is young.

Insider2

Tag the error experts.

CaptHenway

It looks like feed finger die scraping, but I have never seen it so severe on a cent. Perhaps it was a quad press (when did they start using them?) and this was one of the four reverses closer to the feed fingers, so that the feed fingers had to pass completely over this dieto get to one of the other die pairs.

Can we please see a picture of the entire reverse?

Namvet69

Okay, working on it.

Namvet69

@CaptHenway I'm using a kindle hd so I can't open them up but see the attached rev images. The obv is unremarkable.

CaptHenway

Thanks.

That reverse is definitely wavy, like you get from an extremely late die state. It is exhibiting ghosting, where you can start to see an outline of Lincoln's head.
The rippling of the field might have moved some areas of it to a plane where it came in contact with the feed fingers cycling back and forth.

I repeat, I have never seen it this strong on a U.S. coin.

Namvet69

@FredWeinberg I would appreciate your input. Peace Roy

Namvet69

I don't see wavy, I see defined columns, some doubled. IMHO. @ThePennyLady can you take a look please.

Insider2

@CaptHenway said:
Thanks.

That reverse is definitely wavy, like you get from an extremely late die state. It is exhibiting ghosting, where you can start to see an outline of Lincoln's head.
The rippling of the field might have moved some areas of it to a plane where it came in contact with the feed fingers cycling back and forth.

I repeat, I have never seen it this strong on a U.S. coin.

I've NEVER seen any die state produce a parallel wavy surface on a coin.

CaptHenway

The surface of the die is wavy. Scan it going from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock and you will see that it rises and falls.

The erosion lines in the die are straight and flat.

Hemispherical

ricko

Well that is certainly different... I have not seen this anomaly before.... Look forward to more inputs... Cheers, RickO

FredWeinberg

Mornin' -

I've not seen this reverse before either - although I've seen the 31-S's mentioned
by Insider. Very interesting. There is another date, I think, that's similar to the
31-S, but not like this 49-S.

Hard to know exactly what caused it - at first, it looks like feeder finger scrapes, but
I've not seen them this distinct and in two parallel lines (a few pair, it looks like).

A higher grade specimen would be helpful to make a determination as to what caused
it - at this point, we just don't know, imo.

Namvet69

Thanks Fred. I'm glad you had the time to take a look. PM to you. Have a good day. Roy.

robec

I have a 1941-S that has similar markings.

Insider2

I never bought this "feed finger stuff" but I'm slowly coming around. I cannot think of any type of abrasion to a die that would produce these thick lines.

Here is MY problem. We have struck coins (chiefly Morgans and Mercury dimes) that have streak-like patches of PL surface. Folks say these coins result from feed fingers hitting the die leaving a polished area. I don't buy it. Now if the marks on the OP's coin resulted from the same "malfunction," where is the PL surface?

Hemispherical

@robec @Namvet69

Ah... the story continues to unfold for this anomaly.

Namvet69

@robec so can you lay your hands on that coin and show us what it looks like? Is it on the rev? Is it dual columns vertically? Peace Roy

robec

@Namvet69 said:
@robec so can you lay your hands on that coin and show us what it looks like? Is it on the rev? Is it dual columns vertically? Peace Roy

I have the coin. Not sure what you want me to show other than to take a photo. It is on the reverse just like the TrueView shows.

Insider2

@Insider2 said:
I never bought this "feed finger stuff" but I'm slowly coming around. I cannot think of any type of abrasion to a die that would produce these thick lines.

Here is MY problem. We have struck coins (chiefly Morgans and Mercury dimes) that have streak-like patches of PL surface. Folks say these coins result from feed fingers hitting the die leaving a polished area. I don't buy it. Now if the marks on the OP's coin resulted from the same "malfunction," where is the PL surface?

Here is an image that some call "Feed Finger Polish:"

FredWeinberg

Skip, I've not heard that term (FFP), and
although possible, it certainly doesn't look
like FF lines/marks to me.

Die polish, yes, FFP, no, imo.

robec

Here are a couple of others, though not quite as dramatic.

Insider2

@robec said:
Here are a couple of others, though not quite as dramatic.

@FredWeinberg

See the PL surface starting on the Lincoln's reverse. Many say these marks are due to feed fingers.

CaptHenway

Skip and Fred...I too had not heard the "FFP" term. However, I could see it being possible.

Idle thought...Let us assume for the sake of argument that when a new set of feed fingers is installed on a press its surfaces are nice and smooth, perhaps polished. This smooth metal rubbing against a die could leave a shiny area on that die. Later, after the feed fingers get work they just erode tracks in the dies with no luster.

BJandTundra

I do not have an answer but a question. Why are the marks always vertical through the design? The explanations proposed would seem to indicate a more random direction through the design. But I have never seen the Mint's press setup. Just curious

Insider2

The fingers push in one basic direction and the die position is set. Therefore, if it is some mechanical damage to the die that causes either polishing or ridges it should be in the same direction. Remember, "they" say the die is being gouged not the coin.

BJandTundra

@Insider2 said:
The fingers push in one basic direction and the die position is set. Therefore, if it is some mechanical damage to the die that causes either polishing or ridges it should be in the same direction. Remember, "they" say the die is being gouged not the coin.

Thanks. I would give you a "like" but what ever technical problem this site has been having is sstill affecting my system.

CaptHenway

Stand in front of a coin press facing it. The feed mechanism is front and center. Planchets come down tubes from hoppers and are grabbed by the feed fingers. The fingers move into the coinage chamber where the tips of the fingers knock the previously struck coins off the lower dies and continue to slide over the lower dies until the new planchets are over the lower dies. The fingers then open up a bit to leave the planchets on the lower dies, they pull back out of the coining chamber and then close on new planchets to repeat the cycle.

While they are knocking the previously struck coins off of the lower dies, the surfaces of the lower dies might be high enough to be scraped by the undersides of the feed fingers. Because coin dies are set upright relative to the press operator (or upside down to that) the scrape marks are vertical.

Namvet69

I must admit that this is a great discussion. So is ffp restricted to the rev of any coin? due to @CaptHenway description of the feed finger motion.

Hemispherical

@Namvet69

You got a good thread going here with your coin and with @robec input of his coins.

Many experts weighing in and I am awaiting the final decision/conclusion for the future when this anomaly raises its head again.

Namvet69

I agree and reflects well on all who contribute. CU is worth the effort. Have a good day.

Insider2

@BJandTundra said:

@Insider2 said:
The fingers push in one basic direction and the die position is set. Therefore, if it is some mechanical damage to the die that causes either polishing or ridges it should be in the same direction. Remember, "they" say the die is being gouged not the coin.

Thanks. I would give you a "like" but what ever technical problem this site has been having is sstill affecting my system.

My Internet Explorer to CU has been screwed up for a week. I cannot even log out. I reluctantly switched to Chrome.

BJandTundra

@Insider2 said:
My Internet Explorer to CU has been screwed up for a week. I cannot even log out. I reluctantly switched to Chrome.

Same problems but have been reluctant to switch from Explorer.

Mr. Custer, I don't want to go!

Hemispherical

Change is hard.

https://coinweek.com/bullion-report/iran-executes-sultan-of-coins-for-hoarding-gold-coins/

CaptHenway

@Namvet69 said:
I must admit that this is a great discussion. So is ffp restricted to the rev of any coin? due to @CaptHenway description of the feed finger motion.

No, it is restricted to the lower die. Some 20th century coins were struck with the obverse die as the anvil die, or the lower die in the press.
TD

Namvet69

Hold the phone!

I just located a match to my coin. It's posted on Lincolncentresource.com
I can't grab the image of the wheatie rev but it's a dead ringer.
Below is the members explanation.

Feeder Finger Damage: Damage in the form of scrapes to the anvil die which occur when the feeder finger inadvertently rubs across it. On memorial cents, these die scrapes always show on the coin in a NW to SE direction and until the mid 90s, only on the reverse of coins, as the reverse die had always been the anvil die up until that point. Inverse die installation began in the mid 90s, but thus far there are no known examples of obverse feeder finger damage on Lincoln cents. On older cents, such as this 1944S wheat pictured below, these feeder finger scrapes exhibit in a N-S direction. I am currently unaware of when the angle of the feeder finger to the die was altered. That coin and photo are courtesy of forum member Roller.

I can sleep tonight. Peace Roy

Namvet69

Okay the image is there. Thank you class, I learned alot. Peace Roy

Namvet69

@Insider2 @FredWeinberg @Hemispherical @ricko @CaptHenway @BJandTundra @robec wanted you all to see what I found.

Hemispherical

Good work @Namvet69!

Link to @Namvet69 feeder finger post above: http://www.lincolncentforum.com/terminology-list-f/

Insider2

That's what we said but I'm not 100% comfortable with that just yet. I'm slowly coming around only because it is the simplest explanation.