More than a bloody coincidence..............

bolivarshagnasty

@BrettPCGS Could we please put a stop to this? It's ruining the toned market. Consecutive cert #'s from the same submitter. Just a matter of time before they move on to Classic Commemoratives and Morgans.

LIBERIA










SACAGAWEA










LINCOLN










JAMAICA










And if you had ANY doubts........

Hemispherical

😱

Insider2

Some of those Lincoln's and Sacs are beautiful. I'd tell the Doctor to ditch your foreign crap and stick to what you do best!

BYW, the toning on some of the those Proof Lincoln's is "Market acceptable." I was gifted two Proof sets with only the Lincoln toned as this to use in class.

northcoin

Is the remedy to request the submitters to clean the tarnish off before it is submitted?

bolivarshagnasty

@Insider2 said:
Some of those Lincoln's and Sacs are beautiful. I'd tell the Doctor to ditch your foreign crap and stick to what you do best!

BYW, the toning on some of the those Proof Lincoln's is "Market acceptable." I was gifted two Proof sets with only the Lincoln toned as this to use in class.

Before the onslaught, this is the toning I was seeing coming out of the cardboard holders. Tighter and closer to the rim.

@northcoin said:
Is the remedy to request the submitters to clean the tarnish off before it is submitted?

The more likely remedy would be to not straight grade hundreds of look a like coins.

Hydrant

Interesting.

Insider2

@bolivarshagnasty said:

@Insider2 said:
Some of those Lincoln's and Sacs are beautiful. I'd tell the Doctor to ditch your foreign crap and stick to what you do best!

BYW, the toning on some of the those Proof Lincoln's is "Market acceptable." I was gifted two Proof sets with only the Lincoln toned as this to use in class.

Before the onslaught, this is the toning I was seeing coming out of the cardboard holders. Tighter and closer to the rim.

@northcoin said:
Is the remedy to request the submitters to clean the tarnish off before it is submitted?

The more likely remedy would be to not straight grade hundreds of look a like coins.

The problem is this: If someone can (wink, wink) alter coins in such a way that they are indistinguishable from coins that have become that way unaided...NO PROBLEM! Some like attractive toning and some don't; but no one should like to be duped by an alteration of any kind. When in doubt, don't take your wallet out!

AFAIK, the TPGS's are becoming less tolerant of the unusual toning patterns and colors seen on many of those foreign coins so WHEN they were slabbed may tell us if this is true or not.

keets

logic to me would be a "curiosity" about how someone is happening to come upon so many similarly and radically toned same date coins over such a wide type, not just periodically, but repeatedly, when no one else is really finding them and submitting them. perhaps it is the nature of how coins are graded, but you would think someone would notice.

it's interesting that alone, any one of the coins pictured might be seen as OK since Mother Nature does things by chance. the first group from Liberia really, really, really push the limit of believability. most of them don't look right, why would all of them together not cause someone to sit up and pay attention??

MFeld

You directed your post to Brett - did you also contact him directly, to be sure he would see it?

1Mike1

What a mess.

jmlanzaf

@keets said:
logic to me would be a "curiosity" about how someone is happening to come upon so many similarly and radically toned same date coins over such a wide type, not just periodically, but repeatedly, when no one else is really finding them and submitting them. perhaps it is the nature of how coins are graded, but you would think someone would notice.

it's interesting that alone, any one of the coins pictured might be seen as OK since Mother Nature does things by chance. the first group from Liberia really, really, really push the limit of believability. most of them don't look right, why would all of them together not cause someone to sit up and pay attention??

Just to play Devil's advocate a little bit:

1. The existence of many same date coins with that toning is more likely than different dates because it would be the packaging that would cause the toning. [Look at Canada cased dollars that were "naturally" toned blue from the foam that came packed in the case.]
2. If the submitter specializes in toned coins, it is far more likely he would be submitting groups like that. After all, would you be suspicious of a bunch of error coins submitted by Fred Weinberg?

The problem with the whole toning debate is that there isn't such a clear line between "natural" an "artificial". That ring toning on moderns is pretty common if you put the coin in one of those snap together cases with a cardboard insert. It's the sulfur in the cardboard that does it: is it "natural" or "artificial"?

If you don't want to wait 10 years, you can put your coin in its non-archival album in the oven for a while and speed up the "natural" album toning. Why is it natural if it takes 10 years but unnatural if it takes 10 hours?

This is really one of the most difficult issues in the coin grading realm. It is also rife with inconsistency. Most of us have probably either seen or submitted ourselves the end coin from an old paper roll just to have it come back "questionable toning" even though we KNOW where the coin came from and we've seen other similar coins holdered. Different grader, different day?

I will say that the blue toning is very unusual on the Liberia proof sets, they usually end up milky. The Sacs and Lincolns look more normal as those rings do tend to come from cardboard holders. The Jamaica coins will do that as I often see them in cases with foam BUT the foam is usually only on one side and so the coins don't get uniform toning on both sides.

yspsales

Where are the ugly toners at discount?

There should be 10 or 20 for every one monster.

Makes me cringe.

Went looking for something to match a lightly toned Jeff proof. Found everyone's favorite offender. He had 30 sl as bbed examples amongst some singles offered by others.

I would rather sell it raw in the set than slab it and collect it.

illini420

Not sure about the others, but I've seen several 2009 proof Lincoln cents still in the proof sets that look similar to some of those imaged in the OP. Seen even more toned 2009 proof Lincolns from the 5-coin Lincoln coin and chronicles set where the cents were in individual capsules that are definitely not air tight. Remember the Mint went back to the 95% copper for those collector issues and for whatever reason, they tarnish/tone pretty easily compared to other years.

yspsales

There have to be some preventative measures.

If they can drug test, spray to find blood, and know in seconds... they can test for remnants of gassing these coins.

A simple scan of the slab before it leaves the facility would eliminate the backdoor doctors.

IMHO this is no different than faking a Mickey Mantle autograph.

ricko

AT coins are very common... these coins, displayed in a group, naturally arouse suspicion... slipping them through, one at a time, and most people here rave about them....AT is rampant in the hobby now, the premiums are to great to pass up. It will continue, as long as people pay hefty premiums for what is, essentially, environmental damage to the coin. Cheers, RickO

PerryHall

@yspsales said:
There have to be some preventative measures.

If they can drug test, spray to find blood, and know in seconds... they can test for remnants of gassing these coins.

A simple scan of the slab before it leaves the facility would eliminate the backdoor doctors.

IMHO this is no different than faking a Mickey Mantle autograph.

I thought PCGS had a sniffer that detected any chemicals used to AT coins.

AlexinPA

No comment!

ms71

Notwithstanding how they may have come to be this way . . . if it floats your boat, you'll pay for it. If not, you'll walk on by. The market will dictate what it's worth, "right" or "wrong".

Zoins

Are all these proofs?

I recall PCGS seeming to shut down Peace dollars and Kennedy halves.

@HeatherBoyd recently closed a thread about similar coins and asked members to submit proof. Has any been found?

@BrettPCGS mentioned a priority for him is addressing doctoring and talking to known doctors. I wonder if these are covered?

coinsarefun

Geez Louiz........I'm kinda happy I don't collect modern toners anymore. Other than what I have
in my toned type set.

bolivarshagnasty

@ms71 said:
Notwithstanding how they may have come to be this way . . . if it floats your boat, you'll pay for it. If not, you'll walk on by. The market will dictate what it's worth, "right" or "wrong".

My point is that all toned coins value will suffer. If you don't own any modern toners, you wouldn't necessarily care. For an analogy, suppose this same group submitted 25 rim toned proof Walkers, much like the rim toned Lincolns above with nice colors. Then suppose that these Walkers were deemed market acceptable and straight graded by PCGS. In time, hundreds of these reach the market. Will this not take the shine (value) off of all toned proof Walkers? This is essentially what has happened to modern toners.
*
I have watched this company progress from fugly toned ASE's and toned in the holder Peace and Morgans, to what you see above. All of this in less than 4 years. I have no doubt they will progress to Walkers, Commems, and Mercs where there is a premium to be made by artificially toning them.

asheland

@yspsales I like your avatar.

ms71

If collectors will pay for it, it will happen. Whether or not the TPGs are able to reliably separate the "real" from the "faked" is beyond my ability to judge.

davewesen

It would be interesting to find out if these were all submitted raw, or (as others have theorized) re-holder GoldShield.

yspsales

@Zoins said:
Are all these proofs?

I recall PCGS seeming to shut down Peace dollars and Kennedy halves.

@HeatherBoyd recently closed a thread about similar coins and asked members to submit proof. Has any been found?

@BrettPCGS mentioned a priority for him is addressing doctoring and talking to known doctors. I wonder if these are covered?

Valid points...

To paraphrase my professor in the history methodology class... without documentation it didn't happen.

The card police on Blowout did a good job on ratting out the card trimming doctors, now it's time to fight back with coins.

The only dog I have in this fight is principle.

I wont comment anymore on these type threads without proof.

Insider2

@bolivarshagnasty said:

@ms71 said:
Notwithstanding how they may have come to be this way . . . if it floats your boat, you'll pay for it. If not, you'll walk on by. The market will dictate what it's worth, "right" or "wrong".

My point is that all toned coins value will suffer. If you don't own any modern toners, you wouldn't necessarily care. For an analogy, suppose this same group submitted 25 rim toned proof Walkers, much like the rim toned Lincolns above with nice colors. Then suppose that these Walkers were deemed market acceptable and straight graded by PCGS. In time, hundreds of these reach the market. Will this not take the shine (value) off of all toned proof Walkers? This is essentially what has happened to modern toners.
*
I have watched this company progress from fugly toned ASE's and toned in the holder Peace and Morgans, to what you see above. All of this in less than 4 years. I have no doubt they will progress to Walkers, Commems, and Mercs where there is a premium to be made by artificially toning them.

I wonder how many members have a coin or two in some type of container sitting on a window sill? Are We coin doctors? Now, multiply that into a large number of coins undergoing some method to chemically produce a naturally toned product in a particular time frame. The experiments started small and slowly. When a good method to tone coins is developed, crank up the output.

I suggest taking the easy way out. If it looks natural that's good enough. If you don't like toning, don't buy the stuff. Only time will tell if the value of attractively toned coins will continue to increase.

bolivarshagnasty

I wonder how many members have a coin or two in some type of container sitting on a window sill? Are We coin doctors? Now, multiply that into a large number of coins undergoing some method to chemically produce a naturally toned product in a particular time frame. The experiments started small and slowly. When a good method to tone coins is developed, crank up the output.

I suggest taking the easy way out. If it looks natural that's good enough. If you don't like toning, don't buy the stuff. Only time will tell if the value of attractively toned coins will continue to increase.

Spoken like a man with no skin in the game. Do you personally own any coins? Toned or otherwise?

jmlanzaf

@bolivarshagnasty said:

I wonder how many members have a coin or two in some type of container sitting on a window sill? Are We coin doctors? Now, multiply that into a large number of coins undergoing some method to chemically produce a naturally toned product in a particular time frame. The experiments started small and slowly. When a good method to tone coins is developed, crank up the output.

I suggest taking the easy way out. If it looks natural that's good enough. If you don't like toning, don't buy the stuff. Only time will tell if the value of attractively toned coins will continue to increase.

Spoken like a man with no skin in the game. Do you personally own any coins? Toned or otherwise?

But he's not wrong. How many of your toners came from sulfur envelopes or cardboard?

Insider2

@bolivarshagnasty said:

I wonder how many members have a coin or two in some type of container sitting on a window sill? Are We coin doctors? Now, multiply that into a large number of coins undergoing some method to chemically produce a naturally toned product in a particular time frame. The experiments started small and slowly. When a good method to tone coins is developed, crank up the output.

I suggest taking the easy way out. If it looks natural that's good enough. If you don't like toning, don't buy the stuff. Only time will tell if the value of attractively toned coins will continue to increase.

Spoken like a man with no skin in the game. Do you personally own any coins? Toned or otherwise?

LOL, I'll bet I've been collecting just about anything under the sun (including toned coins) before you were a glint in your dad's eye. BTW I think even you will agree that any professional numismatist (someone who's living depends on coins) has a great deal more "skin" in the game than many other folks.

Here is one more thing to consider. Who would make the best counterfeiter? Who would make the best coin doctor? You see, if you can do it, know how to do it, or have tried to do it with good results, you may be able to detect the nefarious things that others do. Hoskins and I agreed that if we went to Beirut in the 70's, we could help the boys produce undetectable C/F's just as good as the ones being made now ONLY forty years sooner! The world is lucky we were both honest.

DIMEMAN

Those are all GAWD awful to me and I wouldn't buy them at any price. But some may like them. Everybody's money is their's to spend.

bolivarshagnasty

@Insider2 ...I look forward to seeing some of your coins in future posts. My point throughout this post is that this influx of AT stuff is going to ultimately devalue the NT stuff. I still believe that.

jmlanzaf

@bolivarshagnasty said:
@Insider2 ...I look forward to seeing some of your coins in future posts. My point throughout this post is that this influx of AT stuff is going to ultimately devalue the NT stuff. I still believe that.

This is probably true. But my point throughout this thread is that the distinction between AT and NT is not as hard and fast as you want to believe.

bolivarshagnasty

@jmlanzaf said:

@bolivarshagnasty said:
@Insider2 ...I look forward to seeing some of your coins in future posts. My point throughout this post is that this influx of AT stuff is going to ultimately devalue the NT stuff. I still believe that.

This is probably true. But my point throughout this thread is that the distinction between AT and NT is not as hard and fast as you want to believe.

Again, if there are twenty five of the same date come thru the grading room with similar toning, it SHOULD raise a red flag.

jmlanzaf

@bolivarshagnasty said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@bolivarshagnasty said:
@Insider2 ...I look forward to seeing some of your coins in future posts. My point throughout this post is that this influx of AT stuff is going to ultimately devalue the NT stuff. I still believe that.

This is probably true. But my point throughout this thread is that the distinction between AT and NT is not as hard and fast as you want to believe.

Again, if there are twenty five of the same date come thru the grading room with similar toning, it SHOULD raise a red flag.

It may or it may not. I was speaking more generally not about this particular set of coins. But since the NT often comes from the packaging, it is not impossible that you will see similar toning on coins that were packaged the same.

Zoins

@bolivarshagnasty said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@bolivarshagnasty said:
@Insider2 ...I look forward to seeing some of your coins in future posts. My point throughout this post is that this influx of AT stuff is going to ultimately devalue the NT stuff. I still believe that.

This is probably true. But my point throughout this thread is that the distinction between AT and NT is not as hard and fast as you want to believe.

Again, if there are twenty five of the same date come thru the grading room with similar toning, it SHOULD raise a red flag.

Are these that good that association is the only way to tell?

Icollecteverything

Maybe the guy just happens to live next to a sulfur factory?

Aspie_Rocco

Insider2

@bolivarshagnasty said: "@Insider2 ...I look forward to seeing some of your coins in future posts. My point throughout this post is that this influx of AT stuff is going to ultimately devalue the NT stuff. I still believe that."

You are correct about things that affect the market. AT coins will depress the price of NT coins EXCEPT FOR THOSE BEAUTIFUL AT COINS that are virtually indistinguishable from NT coins and have become MARKET ACCEPTABLE.

Phooey, LOL. I don't suggest you hold your breath waiting for me to post something from ANY of my collections because you will suffocate while waiting.

Wait, I don't wish to disappoint you and I just happen to have something. Enjoy :