1873 Trade Dollar, Proof or Business strike???
TennesseeDave
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This auction ended a few days ago and I bid on it during the final seconds, but I did not win it. I thought it had a good chance of being a Proof. Not sure anyone can tell for sure from the pictures but I could see a few things that led to think it might be. I'm hoping the winner will let us know if it was or not.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1873-Trade-Silver-Dollar-1-No-Reserve-/333092513061?nma=true&si=HcAPHQILwpfONGEVaAFsKFD8efg%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Trade $'s
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Rims sure look proof in some areas, but I think not
looks like it has been polished
Without spending too much time studying it, I’ll go with business strike.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Where are all the Trade $ experts? What I noticed was the die scratch on the obverse that goes from the end of the ribbon through the folds in the gown across and above the foot of Liberty. That is a known characteristic of one of the dies used to strike the 875 Proof Trade $'s in 1873. Also on the reverse there is a die scratch in the dentils just above and to the right of the word OF which I matched up to an 1973 proof Trade $ on Coinfacts. I know that some business strikes were struck with proof dies but I find it hard to believe this coin was struck with both proof dies that matches the coinfacts coin.
Interesting... sure has nice rims...I hope we get further information from the winner of the coin..Cheers, RickO
I looked for said die scratch - could not see it. Hazards of browsing on an iPhone, I guess
Did you at anything after the date? No "mesa" (AKA "plateau") effect. For me that was an instant tell on non-proof. Even at a distance, there are too many deficiencies of strike to mention.
Dave, your instincts and intuition saved you on this one
Otherwise, you'd be buried
ill go with business strike as well. jmo
I see the die scratch on the ebay coin, it looks just like one of the plate coins on coinfacts.
Look again in the dress folds. It will "pop" right out when you look at the right area. I refrained from posting in this discussion because the EBay image did not allow me to look for more of the tiny clues to its die state or status as a Proof. I'm with the probably not but possible crowd.
I’ve seen this obverse used on both proofs and circulation strike coins. There’s a 64 out there (colorful, used to be a 63, used to be on coinfacts image database, can’t show you now) that is 100% not a proof, but has nicely mirrored surfaces. It can be tricky with these TD’s with re-used proof dies.
My thinking is that after they made the proofs, the dies were transitioned over to “regular” use and some of the first non-proofs looked really nice, confusing many a collector.
For this eBay coin in the OP, nothing shouts proof to me.
Ok everybody I appreciate your input.
It's a business strike -- but, then, ALL coins made by the Mint are part of its "business" and thus "business strikes." The coin on ebay appears to be a circulation strike, not a proof.
Reminds me of this:
My Early Large Cents
My Early Large Cents
I purchased the coin in the OP. I'm a bit torn as to what it is, since it has strongly mirrored surfaces but some key details like the olive branch in hand and the crown are a bit soft.
I'd honestly be surprised if they actually used these dies for BS considering that the reverse was also used for 74 and 75 proofs, but what do I know!
Actually after having compared it with some of the 74 proofs that I own, I am more convinced that it is a BS. It'll still straight grade a 55, but alas, I don't think it is a proof
Thanks for letting me know that you are the one that got it and good luck with it. Please come back and let us know what it grades.
@AllTheAbove76 Thanks for posting the Excellent Proof versus Business Strike Comparison Reference Photos earlier in this thread (also copied below)!!
That’s a great example of attributing & verifying Proof Die Diagnostics (Die Scratch) on a Business Strike minted coin.
The Business Strike example clearly lacks the sharpness, crispness and depth of strike achieved during the Proof minting process, which may have involved multiple die strikes perhaps on a higher pressure medallic press.
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Just to bring closure to this topic, the coin just came back from PCGS as PR53.
Don't the let you post more than once every 6 months at that job you have??
Good to see you posting.
bob
If, without having seen the coin in hand, you wish to disagree with PCGS, that’s your prerogative. But it’s insulting, inaccurate and unfair to state that “the TPG spend all of 2 seconds if that.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Observationally, I agree with Stuart's opinion. The coin has the appearance of a circulation strike.
PCGS has seen the coin so they could examine all three sides and at their leisure. (BTW it's not an "AU" anything.)
Multiples of what you stated, per each grader.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Define ‘accurate’
I'm not a mind reader and you could gave said that, rather than comment as you did. But it's your choice, whether to offer constructive comments or insulting ones.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If grading is an art and not a science, then isn’t it totally possible that a first impression is more accurate than longer looks?
Same could be said of a wild blindfolded guess.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Because expert opinions are valuable data points.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
FWIW, first impressions of problem-free coins are usually consistent with more thorough looks. The value of a longer look is mostly in searching for less obvious problems that might otherwise get missed.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I'm interested to know how one could possibly determine a BS from a proof when it is known both came exactly from the same set of dies? -- that is, and especially, when the condition of the coin in question is AU.
That seems to be an impossibility. And, I also question, whether it matters. Shouldn't the importance be on the dies that created it, and not how it was disbursed? If the latter is of importance, than why are coins sold proof and then subsequently released into circulation still considered proofs? Seems to me to be -- at best -- an educated guess.
Anyway, the ramblings of a millennial I guess.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
@TradesWithChops said: "I'm interested to know how one could possibly determine a BS from a proof when it is known both came exactly from the same set of dies? -- that is, and especially, when the condition of the coin in question is AU."
It is much easier if the coin is made of copper, gold, or silver than for issues struck in nickel. One reason it matters is that some coins with the same date are worth more in Proof and some are worth more as MS.
Im not generalizing to all proofs and BS strikes. -- Just ones where the proof specimen was also used in business strikes.
I understand one or the other will be more expensive and vice versa. But that is a self-defeating answer. The only difference is that, well, they are different - but we cant know!!!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
It's not just the dies that make a coin a proof. Proof coins are struck twice, and modern proof coins are often treated with chemicals to make certain parts of the design take on a frosted appearance, with the polished fields taking on a mirror finish. Several other methods have been used in the past to achieve this effect, including sand blasting the dies. Proof by definition is a method of striking, but it is used to strike coins not issued for circulation. It's usually not at all just an educated guess to tell the difference, except for some specific issues.
I think most collectors would disagree with the idea that it doesn't matter how a coin was disbursed, but only the dies that were used. The method of dispersion is what makes proof coins important; without this they would just be especially nice circulation issues and would not have a premium in value.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
And, the specific issue we are talking about is 1873 trade dollars.
Yes, of course, modern proofs are noticeably different.
PS: Your collection is awesome
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Thank you for the compliment. As stated though, these would have been struck twice; also see the paragraph I added with my edit.
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
Therein lies the problem, though. If a coin is struck once, or twice - but the present coin is in au53 condition. How can one tell if it was struck once, or twice, without the surface of the coin in good enough condition to tell?
It just seems like -- I dont know how else to say it -- a guess.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
At some point, yes, if proof coins are worn or were not struck well enough for there to be a clear visual difference between them and circulation issues, and if there happen to be issues struck with the same dies for use in circulation, it can become difficult to tell the difference, but that's a lot of if's. Since PCGS designated this particular piece as a proof, I'm sure they had some way of positively verifying it, probably using high magnification to look for tell-tale signs on the surfaces. There are also further ways to tell, such as die state - dies will deteriorate with use over time, and if it is known around what state the dies were in when circulation strikes began being struck, this can help experts come to a decision. I don't personally know enough about Trade Dollars to speak about this specific example, but if PCGS came to the conclusion that it was a proof then I'm sure the experts there were positive about their verification of it as such (they do take this pretty seriously). I'm just here to lend some general information on the difference between proofs and business strikes, even if the same dies were used (and I'm sure others could go even further into explaining this, I'm not an expert on that topic either).
Gobrecht's Engraved Mature Head Large Cent Model
https://www.instagram.com/rexrarities/?hl=en
The line between Proof trade dollars and trade dollars intended for circulation can be very, very hard to distinguish. The years '73 and '76 are particularly difficult. I've seen completely mirrored coins made from "proof dies", but with rounded rims and a weak-ish strike. I've seen flat coins made from the same dies, but with razor sharp rims. I've tried to use reed counts as a way to recognize patterns to help differentiate proof from circ strike, but even that path has led to more questions than answers.
For fun, some examples of coins all made from the same obv/rev dies.
PCGS PR58
Notice the rims, the well defined strike of the stars, Liberty, eagle and letters, although the head-dress beads are a bit mushy. The toning covers up most of any mirror in the fields. The rims are well defined.
RAW XF-ish circulation strike
Overall weaker strike than the previous coin, rounded rims.
PCGS AU58
Similar appearance to coin #1 above, with semi-mirrored fields and sharply defined rims. But who knows...tough one.
PCGS called this a circulation strike, but I think it is probably a proof. Feel free to disagree with me, PCGS did. I'd rather it not be a proof, so don't call me biased.
Door #1 doesn’t look like a proof to me
@OriginalDan I’m no Expert on determining Proof vs Business Strike Trade Dollars.
I’ll defer to @TradeDollarNut for that.
However, When I compare these two enlarged TrueView obverse images, to my eye the Top (PR-58) Coin Shows much stronger strike details than the Bottom (AU-58).
I specifically refer to the Crisp 3-D appearing Star Radial Lines, Miss Liberty’s Toe details, the Crispness of the Water beneath her feet, as well as the hammered detail of the “Liberty Scroll”, Stones on which she’s sitting, and the bushels of Wheat behind her Stone pedestal.
Either way, I absolutely Love the look of the top (PR-58) coin!😁👍
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"