Not in the HOF starting lineup. New lineup announced.
JoeBanzai
Posts: 11,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
I tried to put guys in who not only were great players (they ALL were), but who played longer at the position. At first I thought about Joe Torre at Catcher, but he played a lot at other positions.The only exception I made was putting Reggie Smith in RF, he also played a lot in CF.
I had a brain fart and completely forgot about Larry Walker, I know he had troubles hitting on the road at times, but I still think he's the best RF here.
I also wanted to put together a lineup with speed at the top of the order. Another "cut off" was they had to play in at least (or close to) 2000 games. Guys like Mattingly, Dick Allen and Munson were left off. I also chose to ignore some guys that played in the very early days.
Here's my batting order;
Davey Lopes 2B
Cesar Ceneno CF
Larry Walker RF, Coors Field be damned!
Carlos Delgado 1B
Minnie Minoso LF
Tony Fernandez SS
Bobby Bonilla 3B
Bill Freehan C
RHP
Bret Saberhagen
David Cone
LHP
Sam McDowell
Billy Pierce
Guys I can't believe I left off;
Dick Allen
Lou Whitaker
Willie Randolph
Jim Fregosi
Bill Madlock
Lance Parrish
George Foster
Dale Murphy
Fred Lynn
Dwight Evans
Tony Oliva
Biggest surprise was the Bell "brothers" Buddy and Jay who were very good yet don't get mentioned much, and a guy I never heard of Bob Johnson a Left Fielder who put up some great numbers from 1933-45.
Comments
Bagwell is a hofer
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Thanks I'll put in Carlos Delgado.
I can't believe you left off Will Clark.
That's a fine team, including the "bench" in your second list, so I won't quibble. But I think you have to find room for Bobby Grich and Darrell Evans, each of whom truly belongs in the HOF.
Freehan was fun to watch. Ball players seemed to enjoy the game more fifty years ago.
Tommy John was left handed, but Elton John is right handed.
Yes, let's throw Darrell Evans and his .431 slugging% and less than .800 OPS into the Hall immediately,
Harold Baines says thank you Dallas, you're making me look like Babe Ruth up in here.
I’d take Graig Nettles over Bonilla at third.
With almost 3,000 games played, if you're not going to recognize his greatness by putting him in the Hall of Fame, then by default he HAS to be the starting left fielder for the team of NON-HOFers...Barry Bonds.
If Harold Baines had played Gold-Glove quality third base for two decades, when he wasn't playing Gold Glove quality first base, I would have been calling for him to be inducted, too. But he was playing the outfield poorly until his manager said "enough" and sat him on the bench while the baseball players played defense. Harold Baines was a very good hitter; Darrell Evans was a great baseball player.
Ironically, you did not object when I mentioned how Mike Schmidt had stolen several Gold Gloves from Evans. Apparently, Evans is great, but only when it's convenient to you.
dallas, I just object to you in general. If I'm supposed to object to every sentence you post in your
long diatribes, it would take up too much of my time.
From now on, just assume whenever you click 'post comment' I object to every sentence.
Deal. So from now on I'll know if you reply to one of my posts it's just because you're flirting with me.
YESYESYES Grich was a LOT better than I thought, I remember hearing about him as a kid. In looking at his numbers I was surprised at just how good he was! Lopes got it on his stolen bases; +40 per 162. Evans was a toss up, I liked Bonilla as a LITTLE more of a slugger. Either would be fine.> @45isodd said:
Oops on John he batted right. Didn't spend as much time on pitchers.> @countdouglas said:
No juicers on my teams......ever.> @Darin said:
Clark was great, but I found 5 guys with higher SLG and OPS. Wanted more of a slugger at 1B. Delgado was kind of a surprise, he could rake! 10 straight years over 30 HR.> @45isodd said:
Sorry, I have a few guys I like at 3B (a little bit) over Nettles, including Evans, Madlock, Bell and Cey. Not saying he wasn't great, lots of good/great 3B guys not in the Hall. Third base might have been my toughest position. At some point you have to stop looking at guys. Nettles was close to Bonilla in HR per 162 and prolly a better fielder, then I looked at SLG, OPS and OPS+. I wanted more "slug" at the corners, that was a big factor. I wasn't necessarily looking for the "best" player at each position. Lopes and Cedeno were added because I wanted two base stealers at the top of the lineup.
RF was another nightmare. Look at Rocky Colavito and Dave Parker they were great!
Wanted a good combination of speed and power, I probably should have looked at defense a little harder, but didn't.
To be clear I am not saying they all belong in the HOF. There are guys (Oliva comes to mind) who didn't make my team who I think belong in the Hall.
Larry Walker might be my biggest omission along with Todd Helton, you guys with your advanced numbers are changing my thought process. NOOOOOOOOO!
Dick Allen is another.
how about ted simmons at catcher?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I went back and forth there too, better hitter than Freehan and played more at catcher, but I liked Bill's 11 AS games and 5 GG
I might consider Bret Saberhagen for righthanded pitcher.
ERA+ numbers-
Tom Seaver- 127
Saberhagen- 126
Jim Palmer- 125
He's in some pretty good company there!
Good call!
Mark Grace and Luis Gonzalez are 2 players I might throw in here somewhere.
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Dave Parker
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
david cone was a really really good pitcher for awhile. he could have some consideration.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Grace was very good, great BA and a few GG, but 1B is loaded with sluggers. Luis Gonzalez was very good too, but I would put George Foster in before him. Luis did have a nice long career!
I looked at Parker and of the 5 (Colavito, Oliva, Smith, Evans were the others) I looked at, Parker had the lowest OPS+ and a lower SLG. He was a 7X AS, 3X GG and an MVP, so he would be fine.
Smith ended up the guy I picked because of his SLG, OPS and OPS+ 7X AS GG and the fact that he played a lot in CF.
I failed to look at Larry Walker here and he's the guy I should have picked.
Thank you.
Yes he could replace Tiant, I didn't spend enough time looking at pitchers.
Thanks for all the suggestions! I did make some changes and ALL the guys mentioned were GREAT ballplayers.
"No juicers" would likely disqualify Luis anyway.
Just curious because I don't ever remember hearing anything, was there ever any evidence or anything about Gonzalez juicing? If you look at his career stats, I was always surprised he didn't get more attention for the HOF. Good slash line, big rbi and run totals, good power and doubles hitter, didn't strike out much. Maybe the rumors of juicing were a major reason?
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https://bleacherreport.com/articles/209576-d-backs-luis-gonzalez-on-alleged-2003-steroid-user-list
His 57 HR in 2001 really jumps out as suspicious when he never got more than 31 in any other season and a 162 game average over his career of 22.
what about jeff kent or lou whittaker at 2b? I believe lou had around 70+ career WAR
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
What about Will White for RHP?
"Out of the 80 games played that year by the Red Stockings, White started 75 of them, threw 75 complete games, totaled 680 innings pitched and 2,906 batters faced, and compiled a 43–31 record with a 1.99 ERA and 232 strikeouts. White's 1879 totals remain major league records in games started, complete games, innings pitched and batters faced."
Kent was a very good hitter a .500 SLG is impressive, I looked at Whittaker and he was very good as well. I thought Lopes' base stealing was so far above the rest (was surprised at how many bases Steve Sax stole!) he was my guy.
If I were building an all slugging team Kent would be my 2B.
Amazing! Won 226 games in 7 seasons.
68 walks in 680 innings is impressive to. As is 254 unearned runs.
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Well, the rule that 4 balls = a walk wasn't introduced until 1889. In 1879 a walk was issued when the batter was still at bat after 9 pitches. White's walks per inning was actually worse than the league average. If you're looking for a great pitcher from that era, it's not White - who was good but not great - it's Tommy Bond (24 walks in 555 innings).
Parker was the first athlete in history to receive a million a year contract. He was a better player than Jim Rice and Smith. With barely over 2000 hits/1000 rbi, Smith is not HOF material. He finished in the top 10 in the MVP voting only twice. Parker.....six times.
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
As I said before, I wasn't putting together a team bases on "who most deserves to be in HOF" or even "best hitters not in HOF"
Smith won a GG in Center Field in 1968, his SLG was higher than Parker's and his OPS was too. I originally had Smith as my "Clean-up" hitter based on his better SLG.
Parker had a longer career, so of course will have bigger totals than Smith. Smith's last 5 years were real good, except for 1981 when it looks like he might have been hurt. Parker sure looks like he "hung on" for his last 5, with only 1990 being an above average year.
Parker also walked surprisingly few times for a slugger although this isn't too big of a deal, except for on MY team full of great hitters coming up behind the #4 guy.
I am ok with Parker being more worthy of HOF than Smith because of his longevity, he had 2,000 more PA and was about the same as far as talent goes. VERY similar players.
Similar players when Smith never came close to winning a MVP? Parker also had a cannon for an arm. Did Smith even get 1% in the HOF voting?
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Sorry, but can you read?
"I am ok with Parker being more worthy of HOF than Smith because of his longevity, he had 2,000 more PA and was about the same as far as talent goes. VERY similar players."
Reggie was 4th in MVP voting in 1977 and 1978 right there with your guy. He was as good as anyone in 1971 and better than Garvey in 1974.
I have already explained why Smith doesn't get HOF consideration, too short of a career. He is now off my team anyway and Parker still doesn't make it.
You are just going to have to be satisfied with me saying Parker is more deserving of HOF consideration than Smith. I am not going to get into a Schmidt/Brett thing here.
By the way, how does Schmidt not win it in 1974? Voters were especially stupid that year. If you are going to base your argument on this (or HOF voting) you are grasping at straws.
lol
IT CAN'T BE A TRUE PLAYOFF UNLESS THE BIG TEN CHAMPIONS ARE INCLUDED
Banzai- responding to your question how does Schmidt not win it in 1974?
I could ask the same about Stargell not winning in 1971 or 1973. His OPS was over 1.000 both years
with an OPS+ of 185 and 186. He was a monster both years. 44 and 48 homers.
Both years it took a guy with 230 hits to beat him. Joe Torre in 71 and Pete Rose in 73.
Stargell was 2nd both years in MVP voting, and 3rd in 1972.
At 2B, Whitaker would be my choice. Willie Randolph and Bobby Grich would be right there, as well.
I wasn't a big fan of his, but 1B McGriff. Long steady career, and I thought a little better in the field than Delgado
Stargell or Aaron in 1971.
Stargell or Morgan in 1973. Bonds and Aaron were good too.
How does Rose get a better WAR than Willie in '73 4 less errors in LF? 12 more games played? Willie's OPS was .200 higher!!!!!
Please explain it to me.
Crime dog was great, but his slugging numbers were lower than every other guy I looked at who played 1B.> @88horsepower said:
All three were on my list. Lopes stole a LOT of bases and was nearly as good at the plate.
Sounds like you've already figured it out. Stargell did hit better than Rose that year, as his 7.0 offensive WAR to Rose's 6.1 indicates. Had Stargell played every game that lead might have grown to be too big to overcome. But Stargell was a bad outfielder, and Rose (in 1973 - not so much in some other years) was very good. I think WAR is putting way too much weight on their defense - these are left fielders, for Pete's sake - but that is the answer to your question.
Win Shares does a much better job measuring defense and weighting offense and defense. The WIn Shares for the players you mentioned in 1973:
Morgan: 40
Stargell: 36
Rose: 34
Bonds: 31
Aaron: 20
Aaron did hit very well in '73, but he only played 105 games (plus 15 more as a PH) and his fielding and baserunning skills were gone. The other legitimate MVP contenders that year were Aaron's teammate, Darrell Evans, and Tony Perez (and Seaver, if you include pitchers).
Morgan could legitimately have won the MVP every year from 1972 through 1977, and I think he deserved it in 1973.
Morgan would have been a better choice in 1973 than Rose, that's for sure! Maybe even Darrell Evans, he sits at #18?!?!?!?!?!?
Here's EXACTLY why the "new" stats drive me crazy. Simply put Stargell, in 12 less games, obliterated Rose in the power areas (.646 SLG!!!) and was pretty close to him in every category that the "singles" hitter should dominate. OPS+ says he was the winner 186 to 138! Pete was much better at BA but Willie had almost as good of an OBP. Rose was only +3 in stolen bases and scored only 9 more runs in 12 extra games. Willie drove in almost TWICE as many runs.
To me this looks like a pretty significant advantage in value, WAR says 1 more game won for Willie offensively? Really? Then we turn to defense, both played LF (I have heard Dan Gladden say it's the easiest outfield position to play). Willie had 7 errors and Pete 3, and that not only makes up for the offensive difference and then pushes Pete into the lead? I see Pete also had more chances too.
If I am understanding this right (and I by no means claim I am) Pete was then "worth" 2 or three more victories by THIS?
Win shares looks much better, but I don't see Rose being that close to Stargell. One of these two stats is very flawed, looks like WAR to me.
I agree Aaron should be lower because he played in quite a few less games. Bonds score seems low to me; 43 SB caught 17 times and scored a league leading 131 runs while winning the GG, I would put him over Pete and maybe a little behind Willie and Joe.
I might be looking at this stuff all wrong, but making an error doesn't always result in an opponent scoring a run or runs. But hitting a home run always results in at least one run for your team. With Stargell's offensive output he's got to be responsible for around 5-7 extra wins and the defense is at most a -1 for him compared to Rose.
One thing we can agree on, the wrong guy won!
In fairness to WAR, you glossed over the fact that Rose had "more chances" without comment. Rose had nearly 100 more chances, indicating that he got to close to 100 more balls than Stargell did. The four more errors surely count for something, but it's the 100 balls that Rose caught that, presumably, fell for hits when they were hit in Stargell's direction, that account for most of the difference in defensive WAR.
Now, all that said, you're right that there are serious flaws with defensive WAR, and there's no reason to believe that Rose saved nearly 100 more hits than Stargell. Far more likely, the Reds pitchers allowed a lot more fly balls to left field than the Pirates did, and while Rose deserves some credit, it's probably nowhere close to 100 extra plays made. Win Shares tries to account for all this - estimating fly balls vs. ground balls in play, etc. - and I think Stargell maintaining a small lead on Rose despite playing fewer games looks about right.
Yes, I did gloss over it. It looks like we sort of agree here.
Rose was more valuable in the field, even though he was not a great outfielder.
So take a look at the new crop of eligibles for 2019. Man, so many good, good players. Most wont make it in but they had great carreers: Tejada, Kent, E Martinez, T Helton, A Jones, M Young, Berkman, Lowe, and McGriff. And that is leaving off some of the well known (Suspected) juicers: M Rameriz, Sheffield, Sosa, etc.
To be honest, no direction, but...
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E Martinez got in this past year. Kent, Helton, and Jones should all be in to in my opinion.
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I like the one-two punch of Cone and Saberhagen! One could have also considered Doc Gooden and Kevin Brown. All 4 dominated as pitchers at some point.
The thing with Cone is that, you put him in any situation, and he figures out a way to get the job done. He invents something when cornered. If he lost his power, he knew how to pave the corners. If he was on top of his health, his fast ball was nasty.
I respect Larry Walker in the outfield. He was an effective 5 tool player. I just wanted to mention that Albert Belle should get some acknowledgment. He had a short compact career, but with a lot of power packed outstanding seasons!
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I thought about Kevin Brown. Remembered he was said to have NASTY "stuff", Gooden was great for a few years at he start of his career, but was pretty average for most of it. Thought about Belle too, but since I was not just picking for talent, I skipped him because he had a pretty short career and seemed to be a huge pain in the a$$.
You can have a 5 man rotation, so consider putting in Brown or someone else. I also noticed no closer or set up person. Perhaps you can put in Billy Wagner and then select another closer to complete this roster.
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Lou Whitaker was better then Davey Lopes
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