The PCGS U.S. Coin Forum COMPUGRADE Thread
Lakesammman
Posts: 17,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
After receiving some feedback, have decided to try and make this the All Things Compugrade thread.
Interesting information about Compugrade posted here will be copied to the OP to make it easier for people to find information about the company and their products.
Anyone have a Compugrade slab containing a coin other than a $20Saint, Morgan or Peace Dollar?
Could the Forum put together a set of pictures of all grades 60.0 through ???
Compugrade Samples - All are hard to find. The 2 samples on the outside are the ones mose often seen. The middle one has the style of 1967 label but with a 1969-D Kennedy, the only one I've seen. Are there others?
Compugrade boxes are few and far between. This one was acquired 2/19 off ebay, the seller including it in a 7 Compugrade coin BIN since the seller no longer needed it after selling all the Comugrade slabs they had!
Link to the Compugrade patent, thanks to BStrauss3.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4899392A/en
In the patent is this illustration showing how the evaluation of a Peace dollar is broken down into numerous tiny segments.
Here's a strong start to the grading set goal posted by astrorat and reposted here - have heard about it for years and glad to finally see it shared on the forum! This will be a strong start to developing a picture grading set!
These Saints were acquired April 2021. They are the only ones I have ever seen. Please post if you have other Saints or type coins.
Compugrade Codes
Have finally figured out letter codes on this slab (picture courtesy of astrorat) based on the ad's posted here.
L = Luster
P = Proof like quality
C = Cameo strength.
In reading the ads and patent, not sure what scale is used for each letter. Does anyone here know?
Compugrade Ads - Originally posted by LostSisler who currently owns the rights to the "Company" and reposted by U1Chicago here from a thread originally started in 2014 is the Saint ad. In reviewing the Numismatist archives, the first ads are from 1991, the last ad by Compugrade in the Numismatist is the Saint ad from May 1992. Later ads referencing Compugrade, through roughly 1994, include ads by Heritage soliciting consignments and accepting Compugrade coins.
Comments
Charles Hoskins (Former Director of the ANA's Certification Service in DC and principal owner of the INS Authentication Bureau (first TPGS) was a paid consultant when they were starting up. Unfortunately he passed away and cannot help. AFAIK, they went out of business because the service did not catch on. When PCGS was established and later NGC, they controlled the majority of dealer business. The average collector business could not support the older TPGS. I believe only one of them is left. There are a few TPGS that came along much later.
I never heard of anything but dollars being slabbed as they had to program the system for each coin type. Those Kennedy's must be rare examples.
I have only seen the sample slabs you posted and Morgan dollars in Compugrade.
I have only seen Morgans and one lone Peace dollar. I heard rumors the company was considering grade Saint Gaudens, but nothing more than a rumor.
Robin ... are you still around? Do you know?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I have not seen any other coins slabbed by Compugrade.. and those only pictured here...It was an effort made before it's time.... now that AI is being perfected, I think we will see computer grading and real standards implemented... perhaps in the next 5 to 10 years. It will have a major impact on the hobby and the grading business....However, in the long run, it will benefit the hobby. Cheers, RickO
This was posted in an older thread. I’m not certain if the Saint in that ad was actually slabbed. Whether any more were slabbed (and if so, did any survive), I don’t know either.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/352267/post-your-compugrade-slabs
“Sample Slabs” (2nd ed.), by David Schwager
http://news.coinupdate.com/review-sample-slabs-2nd-ed-by-david-schwager/
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Opened in New Orleans in 1991, Compugrade intended to grade coins using computerized equipment instead of skilled graders. Although they graded coins for a few months, the company closed in the same year. They made one of the most attractive holders of any grading service. The plastic has a clear crystalline quality.
source https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/buy-the-holder-not-the-coin-10-slabs-to-look-for/
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Of the 3 samples above, the 2 on the outside are the ones seen most frequently. The 1 in the middle is the only one I've ever seen - label style of 1967 with a 1969-D Kennedy.
Would anyone mind if I changed the title to make this a Compugrade "master" thread where Compugrade info can be accumulated "going forward" (man, I hate that admin jargon..... )
It is your discussion. Please DO IT!
wayATS I posted a link to the Compugrade patent:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/compugrade-question.280968/#post-2464652
Specifically:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US4899392A/en
Claim #1 of the Compugrade patent:
(a) electronically identifying and locating each detracting mark on one of the obverse and reverse sides of the test coin;
(b) electronically measuring the surface area of each identified detracting mark;
(c) utilizing computer means to automatically assign to each identified detracting mark a quantity proportional to the detracting significance thereof based upon the location and measured surface area of the mark on said one side of the test coin;
(d) automatically summing said assigned quantities using said computer means to arrive at an amount representative of all identified detracting marks on said one side of the test coin;
(e) automatically correlating said summed amount into a numismatic grade for said one side of the test coin with reference to a preexisting computer database of scaled values representative of numismatic grades; and
(f) repeating steps (a)-(e) for the opposite side of the test coin.
as you dig further into the patent, the concept of reference databases for specific coins appears...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
This type of quality control automation is easier for larger pieces than small ones. In 1991 the amount of computing power necessary was expensive and the code was difficult to write. Developers were concentrated in the machine tool and inspection industry where work was profitable. Using the technology back then to grade coins was a money-losing proposition.
In addition to slower processors, camera resolution back then was much lower than today.
There is also a significant upfront effort in gaining sight of enough coins of a given series across a wide range of grades to serve as the training set.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
They did a presentation at the 1991 ANA in Chicago that was interesting. They weren't able to do all Morgan dollars, only untoned ones.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
I'm kinda wanting an example now. Very interesting stuff!
My YouTube Channel
Were they the only service that used decimals?
Here's an example that sold for $50 last year:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/58454157_1880-s-compugrade-ms-634-morgan-dollar
Their computer was whacked. I have had Compugrade slabs that were 3 or 4 grades apart in real life, but the same grade on the holder.
Actually, the story I heard was that the coins were humanly graded while they were trying to get the computer to work. Closed down before that happened.
Other services have (tried) to use fractional grades.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The ones that sold for $30-$50 were usually buy-it-now listings from those that didn’t know the value. And those tend to be purchased within a short period.
If auctioned, Compugrade sample slabs would easily go over $100 (probably even over $200). The most common Compugrade slabs (with low graded Morgans), also go for around $90-$110 (more for higher grades, PLs, or Peace Dollars).
As for decimal grades, ACG also tried it, but they only did half points (I used to own an MS 63.5 ACG Morgan).
Thanks for posting the patent link - will read it later. Especially interested in seeing how they handled luster. Counting defects is certainly easier.
Wish I had been the one to cherry pick it, but was flipped to me for a reasonable price.
Edit for typo....
No ... ACG also used decimals on rare occasion.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Hopefully we can get astrorat to post some of his Compugrade material.....
After last year's Tyler coin show he has at least one less...
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Oh, I think LOTS of coins were graded by computer, but not commercially. The patent dates from a year before the service opened and was filed two years before that. I assume that meant they had done a lot in the alpha realm, maybe even some beta testing, but couldn't make it scale.
For those not in the IT realm, alpha testing means I don't let you touch the mouse or keyboard. Beta testing means I let you touch it, but break your fingers if you go off-script.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
No group of humans can "grade" coins within 0.5 of an arbitrary spaced point. To achieve even a one-point +/- 0.5 point is extremely difficult with a well-defined point definition is unusual. What is really being discussed is quality control within +/- 0.5 standard deviation from a arbitrarily defined "standard" that actually floats depending on the grader's emotions and capacity for baked beans.
Standards
Consistency
Standards
Consistency
Standards
Consistency
What is necessary to get those concepts into coin collectors' minds?
Great post @Lakesammman. I'm a big fan of old TPGs and slabs. They are a part of collecting history now. The patents for these is interesting to look at.
Good list of inventors:
I don't want to make this solely about the patent, but one thing to note... is the PCGS coin grading patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US5220614A/en). It references the Compugrade patent and was allowed to expire in 1997 because the renewal fee wasn't paid!
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Here is a peace dollar. Not mine!
.
nice. I have a few samples slabs. and a half dozen of various Morgan dollars.
Okie-dokey ... here is the grading set I put together. The grades are MS-63.0 through MS-63.9 (note the decimal grade on the bottom of the label).
Now ... if I could only find a box to store them ... hmmm ...
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Very nice and rare set.
Very cool - get to finally see that set!
Looks like you've covered the MS63 grade - will be interesting to see if we can fill out the remainder of the MS grades from MS60.0 through ......... well, we'll see.
Awesome! How many times have you had to pull them out to assist in grading those MS63 Morgans you end up with??
Have finally figured out the numbering on this slab (picture courtesy of astrorat) based on the ad's posted in the OP.
L = Luster
P = Proof like quality
C = Cameo strength.
In reading the ads and patent, not sure what scale is used for each. Does anyone here know?
That's interesting, thanks
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
here's another for the thread...don't see many in DMPL
Not my medal , but I like it
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Not mine, but interesting
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
Looks like the label on that sample had a hard life!
Perhaps that was one of the first sample labels
Maybe that led to improvements.
Or maybe it took so long for the computer to come up with a grade, that the label just deteriorated
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
From the patent, here's a "map" of the areas on a Peace dollar analyzed by the Compugrade algorithm.
Given the scarcity of Peace dollars in Compugrade slabs, it's surprising a Morgan $1 wasn't used.
Anyone have a Compugrade Saint or picture of one to share??
These samples are getting harder to find and seldom offered - noticed this one on Ebay this AM.
In going through the Heritage archives, found 17 auctions with Compugrade slabs, 16 sold in 1993. The last was 1997 with a bulk lot that included 2 Compugrade slabs.
The highest grade was MS66, the 1st lot in the picture MS66.1, the second only listed as MS66. 2 lots were for DMPL Morgans. Most lots with 1921 dates don't specify Morgan v. Peace and there were no Saints.
None of the listings include pictures.
Reviving this to ask a ?
@g35fan posted the only reverse in this thread above. Has anyone figured out what the reverse #s mean?
002204 01 004 001
If this were a normal service, I would say that it was the 2204th invoice and line 1 on that invoice.
That would make this the 13th invoice, 3rd line:
And this one (1885O Morgan) the 1st one graded:
Except this one is a different 1885O:
Thoughts? Knowledge???
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Not only haven't figured it out, never even thought about it until your post! If that's the lowers serial number known, it would be a interesting cherry pick, as you know.
Robin Sisler, who formed CompuGrade 3D, bought the Compugrade company's computer hardware and software several years back. He may be able to answer the question. He used to post here, but I have not seen any posts for years. You can find him on LinkedIn.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
I love the education that I gain from posts like these.
Thanks to all for your inputs.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...