Apparently not all '37-D 3 leggers are created equal

koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

This is the second I've seen. It is slabbed PCGS MS64/CAC and seems to be MUCH rarer than the fully effaced version and more closely resembles the 1936-D 3 1/2 legged coin. Apparently this die was polished more than once and this one could properly be called Die Stage A whereas the one we know and love would be the Die Stage B. The small feather directly behind the neck is completely intact on this Stage A whereas it is "detached" on Stage B.

Comments

  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭✭

    Super nice variety, should be called a 3 and one legger for sure!

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭

    Not only have I never seen that, I didn't know it existed. Thanks for sharing. I learned something today.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Glad to hear that! It's the main benefit of this place.

    After further thought this die stage should be "Stage B." A Stage "A" would be a normal 1937-D coin from this die before anything was removed. Die Stage "C" would be the one normally seen.

  • OnWithTheHuntOnWithTheHunt Posts: 805 ✭✭✭✭

    Never even heard of one before. Thanks for pointing it out. Something new to search for.

    Proud recipient of the coveted "You Suck Award" (9/3/10).
  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How was it noted on the slab?

    3 legger?

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes-

  • thebeavthebeav Posts: 2,409 ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, I must admit, I've never seen this either. It's one of my favorite coins.
    I bought my first one in 1977. An XF for 120.00.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    First one I bought was a VG back around 1962 for $30. They are actually difficult to find in good or very good as they were reported very shortly after they were minted, were widely publicized, and saved in quantity at that time. They just didn't have time to circulate down to those grades except rarely.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Concerning the coin cited, it was pointed out that this was an earlier die state than is usually seen.

  • jabbajabba Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 8:10PM

    That’s interesting

  • jabbajabba Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2019 7:29PM

    It’s cool coin

  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 10,058 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting, thanks for sharing !!! :)

    Timbuk3
  • rickoricko Posts: 65,101 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great picture... It would be easy to miss when scanning for 3 leggers... Maybe I better check my 'pile' of Buffs again... Cheers, RickO

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,709 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Always something of interest posted. Thanks.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 36,237 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If I were buying a 3-Leg buffalo, I would only want the late die state specimen where the front leg is totally missing. This reminds me of those 1922 Plain Lincoln cents with the "Weak D" designation.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019 2:19PM

    I've only certified one as a 3 1/2 leg. It was the first one I ever saw or heard of. There is a thread about these on one of the major forums CT I think. I asked if anyone ever heard of one of these. I was very surprised that these were not in the literature. They are rarer than the LDS.

    IMO, calling this a 3 leg makes all the known 3 1/2 leg Buffalos with different dates THREE LEG varieties also. :(

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Some of the 3 1/2 legged varieties are very nearly 3 legged, like this one, a 1927-D.

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,709 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Would have fooled me.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019 3:38PM

    The coin shown in the first post is not a 3-leg variety. No trace of the foreleg above the hoof can be visible to qualify.

    Buffalos with a partially effaced right foreleg have been known for a long time. In the past they were simply rejected because they included design details and did not comply with collector's desire for a "legless" bison. My recollection is they were/are far more commonly seen than the real 3-leg bovine.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree. A 3-leg has no trace of the leg above the hoof. What I find that is important in this discussion is the fact that these 3 1/2 leg '37-D's must be extremely rare. Now I've seen three in fifty years. An never knew they existed since recently.

    1937-D 3 leg 5c are one of the commonest coins sent to TPGS's. Many alterations are submitted also.

  • cmerlo1cmerlo1 Posts: 6,885 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for posting- I had always wondered if there was an earlier die state with the leg only partially effaced.

    You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 7/2013- 1983 No-S Proof Set
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    I agree. A 3-leg has no trace of the leg above the hoof. What I find that is important in this discussion is the fact that these 3 1/2 leg '37-D's must be extremely rare. Now I've seen three in fifty years. An never knew they existed since recently.

    1937-D 3 leg 5c are one of the commonest coins sent to TPGS's. Many alterations are submitted also.

    First one I've seen in 58 years.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Make that the SECOND one in 58 years. The first was posted here by Insider2 back in December, 2017.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    FWIW, I would certify the OP coin as a 3-Legged Buffalo. I can see putting a qualifier such as "EDS" on the holder, but I like the coin.

    As for this being Die Stage B and the regular one being Die State C, I could live with that, but the only thing I would count as Die State A would be a coin with a strong clash mark NOT YET POLISHED AWAY but with enough other die markers that you could prove it was the same die. Anything else would just be a normal coin.

    Also FWIW, I have never seen a hypothetical Die Stage A. The press operator may have stopped the press immediately after hearing the dies clash.

    MOO

    TD

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There must exist coins from the die that created the variety with an intact leg that could be positively identified via a die marker of some kind, as Tom says-a "proto" 3 legged coin.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2019 6:07PM

    @CaptHenway said:
    FWIW, I would certify the OP coin as a 3-Legged Buffalo. I can see putting a qualifier such as "EDS" on the holder, but I like the coin.

    As for this being Die Stage B and the regular one being Die State C, I could live with that, but the only thing I would count as Die State A would be a coin with a strong clash mark NOT YET POLISHED AWAY but with enough other die markers that you could prove it was the same die. Anything else would just be a normal coin.

    Also FWIW, I have never seen a hypothetical Die Stage A. The press operator may have stopped the press immediately after hearing the dies clash.

    MOO

    TD

    Yikes, two years + (12/17). Time flies.

    Here is the problem Tom. As best I can remember, the obverse die is the same as the "normal" 3 leg. The reverse on the 3 1/2 leg in the OP appeared to be different. I took it over to ATS and Rick had not seen one either.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 3 legged has one easily identifiable die marker-a "detached" small feather behind the neck-
    The "Stage B" under discussion does not-that feather is intact-

    There are other minor differences on both the obverse and reverse.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is the image of the obverse of the Stage B-

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @koynekwest said:
    The 3 legged has one easily identifiable die marker-a "detached" small feather behind the neck-
    The "Stage B" under discussion does not-that feather is intact-

    There are other minor differences on both the obverse and reverse.

    Thanks for the tip. Interesting, not something I ever used or noticed. I will need to check it out for myself. :)

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @koynekwest said:
    Here is the image of the obverse of the Stage B-

    Looks like a pretty decent obverse die with no obvious damage from clashing or anything else. I would say that this was not the original obverse die used with the 3-Legged reverse. When the clashing (or whatever) damaged the reverse, it was taken out and polished down and put back into a press with this die instead of its original die, just as the 1922 "No D" obverse was put back in with a new(er) reverse die.

    If anybody ever does find a hypothetical Stage A of the reverse, I believe it will not have this obverse die.

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • jabbajabba Posts: 2,015 ✭✭✭✭

    If you look at my 3 leg above you can see a very small amount is still there? I know the Obverse looks different but the coin in the first post looks like an early die state that kept wearing down in that area

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,569 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Similar interpretation as "No D" 1922 cents, or "No monogram" WL halves. Any slight trace and the coin fails. There are no credits or debits for being a nice or scruffy looking coin.

  • koynekwestkoynekwest Posts: 4,984 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jabba said:

    If you look at my 3 leg above you can see a very small amount is still there? I know the Obverse looks different but the coin in the first post looks like an early die state that kept wearing down in that area

    I have seen examples that have a faint "peg leg" but the one I posted is much stronger.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 26,399 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Similar interpretation as "No D" 1922 cents, or "No monogram" WL halves. Any slight trace and the coin fails. There are no credits or debits for being a nice or scruffy looking coin.

    Your mileage may vary.

    As they say in the wallpaper trade, "How's it hanging?"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭✭

    @koynekwest said:
    Glad to hear that! It's the main benefit of this place.

    After further thought this die stage should be "Stage B." A Stage "A" would be a normal 1937-D coin from this die before anything was removed. Die Stage "C" would be the one normally seen.

    Wonder if anyone has ever identified or found a stage A coin?

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
  • BUFFNIXXBUFFNIXX Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭✭

    You would think that PCGS would actually call this coin a three and one half legger cause thats what it is!
    What say you?

    Collector of Buffalo Nickels and other 20th century United States Coinage
    a.k.a "The BUFFINATOR"
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