Toning Causes a 2000% or 20x increase in value in a common date modern Lincoln

WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 11, 2019 5:46AM in U.S. Coin Forum

I am making no judgement on the wisdom of this, simply observing marketplace reality.

Take two common date 1979-D Lincoln Cents ... both slabbed NGC ... both in MS66 condition ...

The untoned RD ones are going begging at $24 each (few want them -- over 10 are still for sale with few takers). Maybe if the price dropped to $20, it might sell a bit better? Maybe. Lets assume the "market value of an NGC MS66RD 1979-D Lincoln Cent is around $20.

Take the same date (1979-D) and condition (MS66) Lincoln , but this time it's colorfully toned, graded NGC MS66BN. In this case there is a mad scramble --- there are 30 bids in 1 week, and it hammers for $406.00

That's a 20x increase in market value!

I know that PCGS is very locked into the paradigm that RD > RB > BN in the price guide. But in many cases, the reality of the marketplace tells a different story entirely.

Comments

  • EdtheloraxEdthelorax Posts: 188 ✭✭✭

    What happened to the term "Altered Color?"
    I guess if they like it and they don't know differently, let them pay what it takes to make them happy.
    I guess if it makes you rich and you can sleep at night, do what you can within the "rules."
    I guess you can put lipstick on a pig if the farmer is busy milking the cow.

    http://www.silverstocker.com
    Anyone can PM me Any Time about Any thing.

  • rickoricko Posts: 65,201 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People will pay for what they perceive as value....In today's market, the perception is that colorful coins are of value....I have watched this phenomena grow over the years.... and such a situation as described by the OP does not surprise me. It does make me question the wisdom of such a purchase. I do not question those who make these coins... I already know the motive... profit...easy and considerable. So I shall continue to watch the tarnish madness, while not partaking....Cheers, RickO

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭✭

    I have to wonder if that result is repeatable or was this just a bidding frenzy between two bidders, with one satisfied would another go much cheaper. In any event like Ricko I watch the toning craze from the side, too hard to determine real from AT these days.

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭

    .... so what happened when this process progresses to a terminal toning at one point? Is the perceived value would keep going up and that the very point of terminal toning (black) crashes?

    @ricko said:
    People will pay for what they perceive as value....In today's market, the perception is that colorful coins are of value....I have watched this phenomena grow over the years.... and such a situation as described by the OP does not surprise me. It does make me question the wisdom of such a purchase. I do not question those who make these coins... I already know the motive... profit...easy and considerable. So I shall continue to watch the tarnish madness, while not partaking....Cheers, RickO

  • mr1874mr1874 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭

    There you go. Plenty of incentive for the coin artists to do their thing.

    I would be a buyer at $.10 for a 1979-D Lincoln. Needs to be really nice though.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019 11:47AM

    Toning Causes a 2000% or 20x increase in value in a common date modern Lincoln.

    Yikes!

    @Paradisefound said:
    .... so what happened when this process progresses to a terminal toning at one point? Is the perceived value would keep going up and that the very point of terminal toning (black) crashes?

    @ricko said:
    People will pay for what they perceive as value....In today's market, the perception is that colorful coins are of value....I have watched this phenomena grow over the years.... and such a situation as described by the OP does not surprise me. It does make me question the wisdom of such a purchase. I do not question those who make these coins... I already know the motive... profit...easy and considerable. So I shall continue to watch the tarnish madness, while not partaking....Cheers, RickO

    Unfortunately the encrusted, black, end stage (CORRODED RIMS) oxidation damage is usually ignored. Coins as this are in the top grade holders because it is considered "market acceptable."

    I believe there is an old thread on CU where members argued with me that the rims were not corroded beyond having any natural surface under the black remaining.

    In the ideal world, everyone would acknowledge:

    1. The rims of these coins were corroded beyond help.
    2. The coins were beautiful.
    3. The coins were worth a lot of money to those who prefer attractively toned coins. :wink:
  • rickoricko Posts: 65,201 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound ... Coins that have turned black (terminal), usually do not have any premium attached...unless there is color remaining on focal parts of the coin. Cheers, RickO

  • Maybe I should have my Avatar 1960 brown penny graded at NGC & post that sucker :o

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 5,235 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2019 3:30PM

    I wonder what the coin REALLY looks like in hand and not the funky glamour shots. The seller's photography is all over the place IMHO.

  • davewesendavewesen Posts: 2,560 ✭✭✭✭✭

    In the examples cited, the increase in the toned cent is for the toning AND the seller who has a strong following for the coins he sells and the ones consigned to him with beautiful colors.

  • Dave99BDave99B Posts: 5,985 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, neither coin is worth $5. But then again, to each his own!

    Dave

    Always looking for original, better date VF20-VF35 Barber quarters and halves, and a quality beer.
  • yspsalesyspsales Posts: 304 ✭✭✭

    @Dave99B said:
    IMO, neither coin is worth $5. But then again, to each his own!

    Dave

    Agreed...

    I honestly set a limit of $5 a toned coin.

    Most look like crap anyway and I don't trust to pretty ones.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The image from NGC tells a little different story. If it was vibrant like the auction, it would have a STAR.

    .

  • labloverlablover Posts: 2,854 ✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    The image from NGC tells a little different story. If it was vibrant like the auction, it would have a STAR.

    .

    That's a "file" image and not one to show color as one would find with a TrueView or NGC's new image service.

    "If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers
  • david3142david3142 Posts: 2,170 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    The image from NGC tells a little different story. If it was vibrant like the auction, it would have a STAR.

    .

    NGC’s photos for toned coins are notoriously lacking. I wouldn’t put much faith in that but the lack of a star surprised me given the eBay pictures.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Lol, send them over this way. I'll tone them for you. Crazy world, guess money does grow on trees. lulz.

  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 1,496 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Paradisefound said:
    .... so what happened when this process progresses to a terminal toning at one point? Is the perceived value would keep going up and that the very point of terminal toning (black) crashes?

    Your $400 widget becomes a $.01c dreck

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @lablover said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    The image from NGC tells a little different story. If it was vibrant like the auction, it would have a STAR.

    .

    That's a "file" image and not one to show color as one would find with a TrueView or NGC's new image service.

    Then believe the sellers image if you must. I won't.

  • Wabbit2313Wabbit2313 Posts: 7,273 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @david3142 said:

    @Wabbit2313 said:
    The image from NGC tells a little different story. If it was vibrant like the auction, it would have a STAR.

    .

    NGC’s photos for toned coins are notoriously lacking. I wouldn’t put much faith in that but the lack of a star surprised me given the eBay pictures.

    I also reference you to my above comment. If you believe the sellers images, let me know as I have some great coins to sell you.

  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 15,691 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WingedLiberty1957 said:
    ...

    I know that PCGS is very locked into the paradigm that RD > RB > BN in the price guide. But in many cases, the reality of the marketplace tells a different story entirely.

    I think it's a well-known fact that when colorful, market-acceptable toning (i.e., toning that results in the coin going into a slab with a grade) comes into play, the price guides go out the window. Likewise, nobody compiling a pricing guide is going to attempt to take colorful toning into consideration, leaving RD > RB > BN and the assumption that highly developed color the rare exception to the rule as the only viable paradigm.

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭✭✭

    what if there is only 1 known BN? wouldnt the price guide reflect that 1 coin? this is a moot point on the 1979-D because pcgs stops listing RB's and BN's in their price guide for dates after the 1950's I believe. But certainly could be applied to other pop 1/0 BNs

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 12,697 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Pretty toning for $10 maybe... :D

  • clarkbar04clarkbar04 Posts: 3,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 12, 2019 9:50AM

    In hand pics are certainly a hell of a lot closer to the auction photos than that dark NGC scan.

    Its a 66 BN which means it has tons of luster and not muted by the color.

    MS66 taste on an MS63 budget.
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I regret not eating more lead paint chips as a youngin , if I had I'd be right in there bidding at this

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,314 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Elemint asked: "On average if there is any such thing, about how long does it take for a coin to reach "Terminal Toning". Probably varies fro metal to meta; ie silver, copper. nickel etc."

    IMO, no because there are too many variables.

  • mannie graymannie gray Posts: 4,555 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1979-D is a tougher date with nice color.
    The seller's pics look heavily juiced to me.
    I am leaning heavily toward assisted toning on this one; it's possible it is end-roll toning, but then typically the coin will show wheel marks if it was housed in a tight late 70's "shotgun" roll.
    As to value.....I would have estimated this coin at $100-$150.
    The seller should be happy......if it sticks.

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @WingedLiberty1957 said:
    what if there is only 1 known BN? wouldnt the price guide reflect that 1 coin? this is a moot point on the 1979-D because pcgs stops listing RB's and BN's in their price guide for dates after the 1950's I believe. But certainly could be applied to other pop 1/0 BNs

    No. At least PCGS (no idea about NGC) has a policy that it will not list the value of a RB or BN coin higher than that of a RD coin in the same grade. Unfortunately, there is a built in bias.

    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • ilikemonstersilikemonsters Posts: 568 ✭✭✭✭

    It is the most beautiful toned Memorial Cent I have ever seen. I sold the second best to the buyer of this 79-D!

  • MrDMrD Posts: 2,578 ✭✭✭

    The NGC pictures are absolutely not representative of the coin. Just checked and the buyer loved the coin. Perhaps the people that think the pictures were "juiced" are mistaken. In any case believe what you want and if you have coins of that nature perhaps you should send them.

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I can vouch for eBay seller GreatToning. He's a fantastic dealer. Very responsive, honest, and fair. I've dealt with him a lot over the past 8 years and I've never had any issues with his sales or his photography. He does try to max out the color on toned coins, but that's what most of the industry leading photographers do: like Phil Arnold of PCGS TrueView and Robec with his RI's, and others. Most people that own and collect toners want to see the optimal view of the coin (color can appear and disappear on coins at certain viewing and lighting angles).

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 7,630 ✭✭✭✭✭

    RE: "Toning Causes a 2000% or 20x increase in value in a common date modern Lincoln"

    Uhmmm....no, it's not "toning." It's called "stupidity." :)

  • robecrobec Posts: 4,968 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ilikemonsters said:
    It is the most beautiful toned Memorial Cent I have ever seen. I sold the second best to the buyer of this 79-D!

    Can we see a photo of it?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,314 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019 1:31PM

    I've said it many times before but you toning-hounds can prove something for yourselves by checking old auction catalogs.

    I should think that a majority of the "best" coins are sold in auctions eventually. I wonder how long it takes for a blast white, original commemorative (for example) to become as splendiferous as the ones posted above by
    @MrD? I wonder why coins as this were virtually absent from the old auctions when "blast white" was the "in" color of the decades.

    BTW, anyone with a decent IQ can figure out how to produce concentric toning on a coin. It's the chemicals producing the colors that may take a day or two to research. I think I may have missed my calling >:) B) and got on the wrong side of the hobby/business/profession. :(

  • robecrobec Posts: 4,968 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2019 1:57PM

    @Insider2 said:

    I wonder why coins as this were virtually absent from the old auctions when "blast white" was the "in" color of the decades.

    I have read that back in the day because toning or tarnish was out of favor, many coins were dipped to get the "blast white" result. I have one of the Oregon Commems from the Guttag sale. My understanding was the brothers bought these as they were released. Mine has color.........I'm pretty sure they didn't perform any chemical tricks with it.

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭✭✭

    i agree with Robec. When I started collecting back in the 1960's ... it was the BU coins that got the premium. This led to a lot of dipping. Even the 68 Redbook lists BU coins much higher than Unc.

  • FullStrikeFullStrike Posts: 4,229 ✭✭✭

    Can we take this as a reason Kids and Young People are not into Coins? Being a Video Gamer seems like an entirely reasonable interest when put up against $400 Pennies.

    *** urgent message for Mr. Osama(Twin Towers) Bin Laden : I have a free WTC "Death Coin" Set for you. Please reply with your shipping address. For the safety of your Coins they will be hand delivered by Armed Agents of the CIA Courier Services. *** Coins successfully delivered May 1, 2011
  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 7,115 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Slabbed MS common date morgans are so cheap , someone with deep pockets could probably AT a few thousand in the slabs and really make a killing or kill everyone that paid moon money for toners in the past . Probably a mixture of both. If you had a lot of them in blast white you are just watching prices crater anyway.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 5,235 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bronco2078 said:
    Slabbed MS common date morgans are so cheap , someone with deep pockets could probably AT a few thousand in the slabs and really make a killing or kill everyone that paid moon money for toners in the past . Probably a mixture of both. If you had a lot of them in blast white you are just watching prices crater anyway.

    Many have tried this and been caught red handed including a notorious eBay AT operation that is still active. The doctors that do the best work are able to work on the coins raw and then pass them by the services.

  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,569 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7, 2019 4:51AM

    @Ronyahski said:
    No. At least PCGS (no idea about NGC) has a policy that it will not list the value of a RB or BN coin higher than that of a RD coin in the same grade. Unfortunately, there is a built in bias.

    This seems to be true with RDs. At least i have not found an exception. However it is interesting that sometimes pcgs lists a BN coin higher than a RB in the same grade. This breaks the commonly seen price guide paradigm of BN < RB < RD. I am not sure why or when pcgs breaks this paradigm, but it does happen occasionally. The examples shown below are in the Lincoln Cent Series:

  • Rooster1Rooster1 Posts: 297 ✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:
    I've said it many times before but you toning-hounds can prove something for yourselves by checking old auction catalogs.

    I should think that a majority of the "best" coins are sold in auctions eventually. I wonder how long it takes for a blast white, original commemorative (for example) to become as splendiferous as the ones posted above by
    @MrD? I wonder why coins as this were virtually absent from the old auctions when "blast white" was the "in" color of the decades.

    BTW, anyone with a decent IQ can figure out how to produce concentric toning on a coin. It's the chemicals producing the colors that may take a day or two to research. I think I may have missed my calling >:) B) and got on the wrong side of the hobby/business/profession. :(

    Splendiferous - WOW - Is that a real word? Sounds pretty cool.

    Successful deals with:Ciccio-Nibanny, Wondercoin, Republicaninmass, Utahcoin, Abitofthisabitofthat, Doubleeagles59, Peaceman
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 10,314 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Rooster1 asked: "Splendiferous - WOW - Is that a real word? Sounds pretty cool."

    Yes, it was in a Disney Mickey Mouse Club movie. I'll bet that's where Mary Poppins heard it too.

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 1,904 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The PCGS Pop report for 1979-S PR coins shows only one graded BN, only 5 graded RB and 617 graded RD + CA + DC. I did not check to see if this Pop data is still available in CoinFacts. My 1979-S is a 66DCAM:

    Colorful toning on an 1979-S seems to be a genuine rarity. Apparently not many coin doctors involved in this date.

    OINK

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