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End of 20-cent pieces

RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

Here is the disposition of 20-cent pieces remaining in the Philadelphia Mint. They met an ignominious end in the crucibles of the M&R Department.

"Treasury Department,
Office of the Director of the Mint,
Washington, D.C.

May 9, 1878

Hon. James Pollock, Superintendent
Mint of the United States
Philadelphia

Sir:
I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 3rd instant, relative to melting down the twenty-cent pieces on hand at your Mint.

This office, having been notified of the passage of the Act prohibiting the coinage of the twenty cent piece, you are hereby instructed to discontinue such coinage and to transfer as bullion to the Melter & Refiner, to be melted, all pieces of this denomination in your custody, including those in proof sets.
Very respectfully
H. R. Linderman,
Director"

[RG104 E-1 Box 112 from NNP archive.]

Comments

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They even melted the proofs.

    All glory is fleeting.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Melting legal tender coins created multiple bookkeeping entries and roll-backs. Evidently the coins were so generally despised that no bank or sub-treasury would take them. (Imagine if a mint officer put away $10 in these from stock.....]

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    But--- many would be touted at "condition rarities" and "top pop" and "Willy weasel Wonders."

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @KindaNewish said:

    @RogerB said:
    Melting legal tender coins created multiple bookkeeping entries and roll-backs. Evidently the coins were so generally despised that no bank or sub-treasury would take them. (Imagine if a mint officer put away $10 in these from stock.....]

    As someone who actually collects these coins, I can confirm that if said mint officer put away $10 of these, his descendants today would have 50 coins that still, pretty much nobody wants.

    I disagree. I have been an active collector of Twenty Cent Pieces for many years. I sold one piece via the Heritage “make an offer” program for $7,500. There are collectors who want these coins

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,411 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @291fifth said:
    They even melted the proofs.

    that's was not to righteous for them to do that, jmo

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It seems that a lot of the Proof Twenty Cent Pieces that were melted were dated 1877. Given the reported mintage, there may have been a lot of 1875 dated pieces as well. Supposedly the 1875 Proof mintage was over 2,500. It is does not seem to be that most more common than the other dates.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The 75 and 76 proofs are (relatively) plentiful. I think that many of the 78's that were lying around were probably scooped up by insiders when the letter that Roger posted was received.
    There are so much more 78's around now than 77's, much more than the difference in mintage alone would indicate.

    Or some dude is just hording 77s

  • dengadenga Posts: 903 ✭✭✭

    There were 600 proof 20-cent pieces delivered by the coiner in 1878 and
    all were sold. (The December 1986 issue of The Numismatist has details
    of the 1878 silver proof coinage.) It is also possible that proof pieces on
    hand in the coiner’s department, but not yet delivered, were removed from
    the Mint after switching uncirculated pieces for the proofs.

  • KeithMS70KeithMS70 Posts: 192 ✭✭✭

    I need one of those 78 proofs for my set!!!😭

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The coins are not popular with collectors ... other than those putting together type sets or an 'odd denomination' set. There may be a few people who collect the series, but they are quite rare. Even rarer are those who collect by die marriages ... and that's just a handful of numismatic lunatics. ;)

    The mintages of the circulation strikes for 75-P (39,700), 75-CC (133,290), and 76-P (15,900) are fairly low. And considering about 70% of the entire double dime coinage was melted by the US Mint, those already low mintage figures are even lower. IF the coins were popular, the prices of those three pieces would be much, much higher than they are currently.

    Other than the recent fluke with the 77-P proof only issue and the constantly elevating prices for the ultra-rare 76-CC, prices for double dimes have remained relatively flat for decades.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here is a letter from David Proskey to the Mint in June of 1873 trying to buy up a quantity of Proofs of the discontinued two cent pieces and silver three cent pieces. He and others might have done the same with the twenty cent pieces after they were discontinued.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • KindaNewishKindaNewish Posts: 827 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @astrorat said:
    ... and that's just a handful of numismatic lunatics. ;)

    Hey, I resemble that remark!

  • TommyTypeTommyType Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @KindaNewish said:

    @astrorat said:
    ... and that's just a handful of numismatic lunatics. ;)

    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Hey, at least you don't collect 3-cent nickels......(looks at himself in the mirror). :tongue:

    But really, the 20-cent series (if you can call it that?)...is propped up quite nicely by the type set collectors. Nobody would consider a nice, common 1875-S, 20-cent "cheap" when compared to coins of similar age and grade. They aren't unloved! Just under appreciated. :)

    Easily distracted Type Collector
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @KeithMS70 said:
    I need one of those 78 proofs for my set!!!😭

    The 1877 is a lot harder. Somebody or maybe a few somebodies were buying them all up a few years ago a very strong prices.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I want one !!! ;)

    Timbuk3
  • mustangmanbobmustangmanbob Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭✭✭

    (Brain thinks about a new profit center)

    27 February 2019: US Mint announces the new PRIME NUMBER Series of Coins. This new series is to bring emphasis to STEM education. The coin denominations are as follows: 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17, 19, 23, 29, 31, 37, 41, 43, 47, 53, 59, 61, 67, 71, 73, 79, 83, 89, 97, Each will be minted at 3 mints, have distinctive mint marks, and will also be available in Mint Set and Proof editions, the proof will all be 98% pure copper. Examples of each were lent to members of Congress, to be returned in 24 hours, for comment.

    28 February 2019: Ebay search showed 416 listings for the new Prime Number Series of Coins, all with Washington DC addresses.

    18 March 2019: US Mint announces the new SQUARE NUMBERS Series of Coins. This new series is to bring emphasis to STEM education. The coin denominations are as follows: 1, 4, 9, 16, 25, 36, 49, 64, 81, 100, Each will be minted at 3 mints, have distinctive mint marks, and will also be available in Mint Set and Proof editions, the proof will all be 98% pure copper.

    10 April 2019: The Vending Machine industry told the US Mint no way in HADES are they redesigning vending machines to accept 47 new coin types. Jeffrey LardBucket, President of Snack Machines, said "The people at the mint must be on crack with all these new designs."

    9 May 2019: 248,310 people were arrested today, almost 1/10th of the US Mint design team, in a massive Crack Smoking bust. All have been suspended with full pay.

    22 May 2019: All 248,310 people busted for crack have been released from Government Service, with a $2.2 million dollar severance, and full medical and retirement benefits for life.

    31 May 2019: TPG's announced the registry sets for PRIME and SQUARE coins.

    1 June 2019: The PRIME and SQUARE number series have been cancelled. All inventory remaining, including all mint set and proof (99.69% of coins struck were never sent to circulation, as "No one in there right mind" would ever want these things in commerce, will be sold to the highest bidder for melting.

    7 June 2019: The US Mint announced an windfall profit of $2.2 Billion after the news release that all the unissued coins were to melted down, Coin Collectors went on a bidding war to obtain coins for registry sets.

    2 January 2086: Newly obtained documents by the Great Grandson of RogerB identified correspondence about the ill fated PRIME and SQUARE number coins showed the whole thing was a scam from the get go. The US Mint identified that Coin Collectors would go FRANTIC about any coin being melted before they had it in their collection and the whole set up was designed to exploit this weakness, based on research done on the 20 cent piece.

  • astroratastrorat Posts: 9,221 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Melting legal tender coins created multiple bookkeeping entries and roll-backs. Evidently the coins were so generally despised that no bank or sub-treasury would take them. (Imagine if a mint officer put away $10 in these from stock.....]

    Yep ... the double dime was monetary solution in search of a problem.

    Numismatist Ordinaire
    See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
  • fcfc Posts: 12,788 ✭✭✭

    At the time these coins were being minted did cash registers even have a spot designed for them?
    Almost like some registers now days do not even have a spot for .50 and dollar coins?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 31, 2019 2:24PM

    Cash registers of the sort older modern folk are familiar with were very rare - and only used by large retail businesses. The closest most businesses of that era got was called an "automatic cashier," and even those were every expensive and prone to breakage. The clerk punched keys totaling the sum to dispense, pulled a lever and the machine dispensed the correct amount of coin. There was no cash drawer. 1877 was at the beginning of practical coin dispensing, counting, and sales registering devices. (This is also why there was no outcry about changes to the size of the 5-cent coin - it had no impact on businesses.)

    (See discussion of the "Brandt Automatic Cashier" used in testing new 1916 coinage designs. Also AT&T....which modest-size company at that time: Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921.)

  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Outside of large cities I would imagine than a small wooden or metal box sufficed as the money box - It was a practice in some smaller stores in the former USSR even a few years ago - usually a box with a small pile of coins in it.

    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
  • StrikeOutXXXStrikeOutXXX Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019 1:04PM

    I happen to be digging through this set of records where Roger got the letter. A series of a few letters are kind of interesting - and for the 20-cent proof collectors, you may have a cashier to thank for saving a few of them.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    5/3/1878:

    Hon, James Pollock,
    Superintendent

    Sir,
    The bill abolishing the twenty cent piece has now received the approval of the President.
    We have on hand a few hundred dollars in that denomination of coin. It is always in the way, and now is really only bullion.
    Allow me to suggest that this bullion be now turned over to the melter & refiner for recoinage. In that way and can get rid of an anomaly in our accounts.

    Very Respectfully,
    (unreadable - ...obb)
    Cashier
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    5/4/1878

    Hon James Pollock
    Supt Mint
    Phila, Pa

    The Superintendent will discontinue entirely the coinage of 20 cent pieces. The law authorizing that coinage having been repealed.

    H.R. Linderman
    Director

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    5/9/1878 - The letter in the OP from Roger from Linderman ordering the melting of everything.

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    5/10/1878

    Hon. James Pollock,
    Superintendent

    Sir:
    In the matter of the recoinage of twenty cent pieces on hand, ordered by the Director in his letter of May 9, current, I beg leave to suggest that to discharge the proof sets on hand of the 20 (cent) coins therein would necessitate several entries in books of (a/c?) and statements and thereby complicate a very simple transaction.
    In view of this would it not be better to retain the retained coins in the few proof sets we have, and thus avoid complicating the (a/c?) ?

    Respectfully,
    (unreadable - ...obb)
    Cashier

    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    5/13/1878

    Hon. Jas. Pollock
    Supt Mint of
    Philada.

    Sir:
    In reply to your letter of the 10th instant enclosing a communication from your cashier, suggesting that it would be better to retain the 20(cent) piece in the few proof sets now in your hands, I have to state that I see no objection to your doing so, but no further delivery of these pieces, or of proof sets containing them, will be made to the Superintendent by the coiner.

    Very Respectfully
    H R Linderman
    Director
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    The cashier did not mind melting the few hundred dollars of "Bullion" they had, but did not want to complicate accounting by getting rid of the proofs on hand.

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    "You Suck Award" - February, 2015

    Discoverer of 1919 Mercury Dime DDO - FS-101
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice!

  • RayboRaybo Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2019 7:11PM

    @BillJones said:

    @KindaNewish said:

    @RogerB said:
    Melting legal tender coins created multiple bookkeeping entries and roll-backs. Evidently the coins were so generally despised that no bank or sub-treasury would take them. (Imagine if a mint officer put away $10 in these from stock.....]

    As someone who actually collects these coins, I can confirm that if said mint officer put away $10 of these, his descendants today would have 50 coins that still, pretty much nobody wants.

    I disagree. I have been an active collector of Twenty Cent Pieces for many years. I sold one piece via the Heritage “make an offer” program for $7,500. There are collectors who want these coins

    My name is Ray and I'm a...…………………………..collector of the oddball series of coins.
    I have dabbled in the 3 cent CN, 20 cent pieces and currently in the best series EVER, the lowly 2 Cent Piece.
    Just try to complete a set of business strike CN 3 Cent pieces in whatever grade, it ain't easy (need an 1884 or 1885 BS?).
    20 Cent pieces seem to be the "cats meow" when it comes to a compact series. but I have to agree with Bill on this one especially in BU and proof.
    I love copper and that's why I settled on the large size (my eyes are not what they used to be) and relatively small production of the 2 Cent Piece series. I sure do wish I had the dough for an 1864 SM proof. :#

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