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Should PCGS designate WHERE "tooling" is?
topstuf
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I know I'd find it a HUGE help.
I was just looking at a cool coin labeled "Tooled" and can't see anything anywhere.
Maybe just use obverse and reverse QUADRANTS to help direct study.
Should PCGS designate WHERE "tooling" is?
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Yes it would be helpful BUT
NO!! A thousand times NO! I have this argument over and over. Needing to describe where to look for something on a coin screws up the appearance of the label and often takes up more space than available.
Folks come up to me all the time with detailed coins and ask me to find it. My initial answer is to look at the coin and tell me! Often they still cannot see an OBVIOUS PROBLEM because 90% of the folks who look at a coin hold it steady and stare at it for several minutes! Additionally, many don't have a clue of what the coin's design should look like.
Thankfully, with a little instruction, most "see the light." I solve the problem with a note to the submitter in cases where a problem is extremely deceptive.
A further word of warning. Some tooling is so well done that even folks considered in the top two dozen U.S. authenticators can miss it if they get complacent. In one case, decades ago, the tooled design on a Trade dollar was done so well that when pointed out, the finalizer refused to see it and would not examine it with a stereo scope using an unaltered comparison coin.
I'll never know his reason for sure. After all, if an alteration is that good, is the coin altered. 
BTW, the reverse design of the coin was 100% altered.
I can see where it could clutter up the label.
Something like O-3 or R-2 could eat up more room than a CAC sticker.
Or in a worst case, O-2,3,4 or R-1,2
Heinous waste of space.
Agree that the label shouldn't be cluttered so I would suggest that the grader just take a fine-tip red Sharpie and circle the area of tooling on the coin. This would be quite educational and remove any doubt as to where the tooling is on the coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It could be nice (and helpful), but also cause other issues. There may be too many places to list. They may bag the coin noting tooling in one obvious area, but then not note it elsewhere, so the coin is actually worse than you thought based on the label.
One of the issues I have with the labeling of problem coins is only the most obvious problem gets noted. When it comes time to sell, buyers may think that the coin only has problem X because that's what's noted, rather than realizing it has more issues (or perhaps being more scrupulous as they might be with a raw coin where they're looking for every possible flaw). I often see this with coins that may be harshly cleaned and also scratched. The cleaning is noted, but as a buyer you have to pay attention to the presence of the scratches that aren't mentioned.
The tooling location could be stored in a database so that the notes would appear on the PCGS Cert Verification tool.
The quadrant idea is also interesting using "O" for obverse and "R" for reverse:
"Tooled - Q1 o; Q2 r"
It would be very helpful. Who cares how cluttered the label will be when it's ungradeable.
The problem/problems are often noted in the computer notes in case of a call. The sharpie is a better suggestion but most folks would ruin the plastic slab trying to remove it. Washable sharpie? No TPGS has the time to write notes to customers.
ANACS includes any grader comments on the packing slip when the coin is returned. Sometimes they explain the problem.
Tooling is bad enough. If you add distracting sharpie marks, you might as well give up on ever displaying or selling the coin.
They're not making this determination for free. paying for this service, I expect a clear explanation as to where the tooling is located. IMO. Peace Roy
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I would only say "obv tooled" or "rev tooled"...that's enough for a holder.
Early American Copper, Bust and Seated.
Correct me if I am wrong, but once graders notice a problem, they don't continue looking, true?
So, maybe the coin is tooled, artificially toned, etc etc etc.
They note the first/key issue and then move on to the next coin. If you have, as stated above, a coin that is tooled in more than 1 spot, why would they keep going after noting the first spot? So, if you expect them to have the label updated, and they stopped at 1 spot, you may have even more issues than the label states.
Graders move through coins quickly....to have them completely go over a coin, after already finding an issue, could easily be considered a waste of time
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
The sharpie goes on the outside of the slab and comes off easily.
LOL! Lets see, how long do you think it would take to explain the reason for at least 300 to 800 coins a day are detailed? Not to be tough on you Roy but You get a REASON on the label. Study the coin and find it or seek help. If you live alone on an island, AFAIK all the services have a reconsideration tier. A short note asking for clarification probably works wonders.
( ✔️ ) Explanation of ungradeable coin. Add 5$
Not on label but listed on the submission form
That's good to know! I didn't know that it was easy to remove sharpie ink from a slab.
Who in their right mind is submitting 300 to 800 coins seen per day that would details grade!?
I think you could split the coin up into 4 quadrants and call it upper left/right lower left/right obverse reverse in shorthand to give a general idea where on the coin where a problem exists or simply rim issue if that's the case.
I wouldn't want to see a protracted explanation of what's wrong with a coin on a slab label. If on a packing list or a separate note, it could be helpful, but it would almost assuredly slow down the throughput of the grading room and lead to higher costs. If a grader had a dictation device that was capable of transcribing a quick description of the problem when he or she clicked the "cleaned" or "tooled" button, that would probably have the least impact on throughput.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
As a con, more accurate and descriptive labels might make it harder to sell already difficult to sell problem coins.
Did you mean con or coin?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I missed the double entendre when I wrote that post.
It would be helpful to collectors to have that information.... That being said, grading hundreds of coins a day is a process that does not lend itself to recording details....and the label is really too small for such information. I do like the idea of making such detailed information available for an additional fee. Then the coin in question could be diverted to a 'detail' individual and a written explanation added to the package. Cheers, RickO
@Insider2 said: "LOL! Lets see, how long do you think it would take to explain the reason for at least 300 to 800 coins a day that are detailed?"
@gtstang asked: "Who in their right mind is submitting 300 to 800 coins seen per day that would details grade!?"
I could give you an exact # per day but that info is way above your need to know.
Think this out. When a coin is rejected by PCGS, where do you think the fools try to get it slabbed next?
How many coins do you think a major TPGS gets a day? How many customers sent them? Now, figure out how many raw coins you think may not be market acceptable. Monday is a big mail day but the 800 number I posted will not happen on a Tuesday, the slowest mail day.
Goo Gone!
What about narrowing it down - Obv or Rev.
No, it would ruin the fun of searching for the tooling then slapping your forehead when you find it! 😆
Here's a tooled "MS-98" 1818 Capped Bust Half Dollar I was recently following. Would this be better or worse with the information on the slab?
Some people like protracted explanations for errors, but I guess errors are not "wrong"
If some tooling is so good to fool even top authenticators, wouldn't this be a reason to highlight it on the slab?
An 8x11 inch slab could hold lots of info.
What is an "acceptable" turnaround time for you? What is acceptable for a dealer? What's acceptable if you bought a coin from Ebay?
Get real.
One TPGS I worked for offered "IN-DEPTH GRADING" for any coin - a detailed description + hand drawings for any defects (added to 3' circles of both sides) for an additional small fee to the grading charge. Using this 8X11evaluation, you would know the exact reason for the assigned grade. I'll bet than less than thirty were ever requested in three years!
IMHO, I would prefer more information. As stated somewhere above, the majority of the hobby is not capable of identifying the minor details that would require an experts input whether that be an actual grader or a seasoned dealer or collector. As the hobby market evolves the TPG's that offer a service need to identify what else they can offer that increase demand for their service over competitors and based on the initial results of this poll there is clearly a desire for additional label information. Having said that, I realize just because it's a service the hobby may desire, implementing that into a profitable form will rule out. As much time I spend reading these forums trying to educate myself further I am certainly no expert. If an abbreviated explanation is too much and clutters the label then how about utilizing the labels reverse as well? The reverse label is totally wide open. I don't know who markets them and offers the service but I have seen some neat looking label stickers affixed to the reverse of the slab illustrating Morgan VAM's.
Interesting topic.
It's a helluva lot easier to just AVOID coins that aren't STRAIGHT GRADED !!!
IMO, that's a good thing, because you have shown that you know very little about the internal workings of a MODERN major TPGS! In the prehistoric past, receiving over a hundred coins a day would practically shut the place down!
In the 1970's we would joke that if we sent 20 coins requiring a specific gravity test to the "other" service, it would kill their turnaround time.
PS It takes 3 seconds to CARFULLY remove a coin from a flip let alone start writing notes!
And THIS you claim to know because you've been in a grading room and actually observed these notes?
I'll play along, let's say that is the case. Each grader (?) makes notes? Do they leave them in the box of coins? Do they type them into the computer? What is the system that keeps the notes with the coins or transfers them to the order from the computer. In another thread, one of the long-time former professional graders here posted something to the effect that you better be able to grade many hundreds of coins per day accurately or you won't last long. Let's say only 10% (LOW) get notes. Six hundred coins + 60 notes? LOL.
How long would you guess it takes to grade a Flowing Hair dime and leave a note? What about a Capped Bust half dollar with several of the usual problems?
Trust me when I tell you that it is not practical for the top two TPGS's to have any personal contact with at least 97% of the customers or leave notes about any coins that are detailed. If a collector cannot understand words such as cleaned, scratched, corroded, spot removal, etc. and identify them on their coin (at least 5% of our customers cannot) they should only purchase graded coins while they develop their eye-for-detail.