Also, wondering why Andruw Jones doesn't get more consideration for the hall. He has the highest defensive WAR of all time among outfielders and he raked while doing it. He hit a ton of homeruns and he had a really good 9 year stretch where he was the best defensive outfielder in the mlb and he was a great hitter as well. From 1998-2006, he went to 5 all star games, won 9 gold gloves and averaged a line of .270/.347/.513/.860 with 35 hr 104 rbi 99 runs averaged over 9 years.
Andruw Jones career reminds me of a certain current Orioles 1B, awesome for a few years and then they both forgot how to hit suddenly in their early 30's....
Heres a thought experiment ... assume we know for certain that Jones did not juice his entire career and put up the stats he did. He is a borderline HoFer that probably wont ever make it (though I'd put him in over Baines, but lets not get started on that)
Then make a hypothetical assumption that at age 30, when his career hit the skids, Jones started PEDs and put up 5 more years (2008-2012) that were similar to the previous five. Statistically, he would cross any statistical thresholds you'd want to make for Cooperstown inclusion.
This is why I have issue with the "he was a hall of famer before he used" argument made for some candidates. For anybody making that argument, do you support Jones now? Because then, isnt the next logical step "yeah, Jones was probably clean but fell apart. If he had used, and put up a few more years, I would have supported him."
@grote15 said:
Walker was a great hitter but suffers from the Coors effect. His batting average at Coors was over 100 points higher vs elsewhere.
His OPS is 15th all time and his OPS+ #69. IF the "+" is supposed to equalize the park factor, he is still above A LOT of HOFers like Reggie Jackson, George Brett, Carl Yastrzemski and Al Kaline.
PLEASE stop getting so hung up on the "Coors effect" he was also a superior defensive player with a great arm as well as a very good runner.
In his MVP year he hit better AWAY from Coors with a 1.176 OPS and 213 OPS+ in 1998 he was at .892/141 on the road, 1999 .894/131 on the road, in 2000 he was BAD away from Coors, .770/103, in 2001 .965/158 on the road.......still GREAT numbers.
For almost every single year he was performing on the road at a HOF level, at home he was playing at an unbelievable level, so we punish him for not hitting .400 on the road because he did it at home?
He had a 130 OPS+ in his final year in St Louis, did he still do all his hitting in Coors Field that year? Don't forget he had years of 141 and 151 OPS+ before he played for the Rockies.
I'm sorry, I just don't get it.
Larry Walker was an exceptional player. I believe the biggest knock on him is that he only eclipsed 500 at bats twice in his career. He only played 140+ games three times. That severely lessens his value.
I know he missed games due to injury, but they were usually the nagging type injuries that others played through. He also missed games by sitting vs tough lefties...which helped elevate his percentages across the board....but hurt his value toward winning. Playing 160 games a year, like others did with those same factors, then his BA, Ob%, SLG%, OPS, OPS+...are all going to be lower than they are.
He was almost a pure platoon player with St. Louis and that is why his OPS+ remained high. In his last year in St. Louis he had 299 plate appearances vs righties and only 68 vs lefties. That is Ken Phelps territory. Pick and choose who you get to bat against helps your rate stats.
So maybe he is more of "what could have been if he was healthy," "with a mix of made of glass and a dash of Ken Phelps."
I agree he missed some games and had a short career, I think 6900 AB is still enough, if you eliminate Pitchers, Catchers and guys who missed time for WWll he would be close to dead last!
How many tough left handed pitchers did he avoid? I would avoid Randy Johnson not just to help my numbers, but to survive!
For the sake of not getting into yet another unproveable argument, I'll agree that his numbers would have been worse if he played more often when hurt and against tough left handed pitchers. The question is how much worse?
For years, I thought he must have totally sucked away from Coors the way he gets ripped. Then I saw that he played worse, but still managed to put up some good and even great numbers on the road.
What gets mentioned by only me (I think) is the other parts of his game where he excelled; exceptional fielder, could steal you a base, I didn't see him play much, so don't know what kind of arm he had, but he certainly wasn't a one dimensional player. Great defensive players who can hit are rare.
He could drop several points OPS+ and still be ahead of Kaline.
Another guy that gets talked about, Dick Allen, played less, would you keep him out for the same reason? Allen was a better hitter, but certainly not as valuable in the field.
Better than Harold Baines? With the trend of putting in so many "very good" players (not to mention the juicers that will surely get in sooner or later, I hope I am wrong) when does it get to the point that guys like Walker, Oliva and Allen are better than ALL of the new entrants?
Since looking at your post, my opinion of him isn't as high as it was, but I still think he merits the hall especially where it's been going the last few years.
I agree that he is better than Baines etc. He did have a good arm too.
I don't know how much worse his numbers would have been at 155 games per year...and it actually may have helped his HOF case because even though his percentages would have been lower, the voters typically like the higher raw totals.
I actually put Walker more in the category of injuries robbing a HOF career more than anything. Kind of the Fred Lynn of his era.
I'm surprised in your argument against ballpark adjustments, that you never mentioned Galaragga leaving Coors and going to Atlanta and putting up a raw OPS of .991(better than any Coors year he had except one). Then an .895 OPS the next year.
I agree with you that there are some ballpark adjustments that make one scratch their head.
Also, wondering why Andruw Jones doesn't get more consideration for the hall. He has the highest defensive WAR of all time among outfielders and he raked while doing it. He hit a ton of homeruns and he had a really good 9 year stretch where he was the best defensive outfielder in the mlb and he was a great hitter as well. From 1998-2006, he went to 5 all star games, won 9 gold gloves and averaged a line of .270/.347/.513/.860 with 35 hr 104 rbi 99 runs averaged over 9 years.
Andruw Jones career reminds me of a certain current Orioles 1B, awesome for a few years and then they both forgot how to hit suddenly in their early 30's....
Chris Davis has had 3 good seasons in his career. Andruw Jones had 9 straight good seasons where he was one of the best hitters in the mlb and is probably one of the best defensive outfielders of all time. Not really a very good comparison.
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I'm surprised in your argument against ballpark adjustments, that you never mentioned Galaragga leaving Coors and going to Atlanta and putting up a raw OPS of .991(better than any Coors year he had except one). Then an .895 OPS the next year.
I agree with you that there are some ballpark adjustments that make one scratch their head.
I did not realize that! I was thinking of looking at Walkers team mates while with Colorado and seeing who and how much better they were home/road but just don't love the numbers enough. Was wondering if they all did it.
Saw one game at Coors. Walker went 4 for 5, just RIPPED the ball, looked head and shoulders above everyone. Sample size couldn't be any smaller. Just lucky he played that day, must have been just of the DL and facing a crappy right-hander! ;-)
Someone (maybe not even on this thread) said Walker lead the league only once in an offensive category (doubles) when he wasn't playing at Coors field. That only gives him 4 years at the start of his career and one at the very end. I wonder how a lot of guys would look if you limited them to that. Willie Stargell would be at zero.
Sometimes I wonder how bad you have to dislike a guy to come up with facts like that to denigrate him.
Saw next years guys for HOF, I suppose Soriano and Konerko will get in ahead of Larry........after all, they didn't play at Coors field!!!!!
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Also, wondering why Andruw Jones doesn't get more consideration for the hall. He has the highest defensive WAR of all time among outfielders and he raked while doing it. He hit a ton of homeruns and he had a really good 9 year stretch where he was the best defensive outfielder in the mlb and he was a great hitter as well. From 1998-2006, he went to 5 all star games, won 9 gold gloves and averaged a line of .270/.347/.513/.860 with 35 hr 104 rbi 99 runs averaged over 9 years.
Andruw Jones career reminds me of a certain current Orioles 1B, awesome for a few years and then they both forgot how to hit suddenly in their early 30's....
Chris Davis has had 3 good seasons in his career. Andruw Jones had 9 straight good seasons where he was one of the best hitters in the mlb and is probably one of the best defensive outfielders of all time. Not really a very good comparison.
Jones was VERY good. If people had a little more appreciation for superior defensive ability (maybe watch a few games) they would realize that it's a big part of the game.
If the Byron Buxton fella ever stops getting injured, you are (if you haven't already) going to see a very special player. Of course he needs to hit a little bit to play too, but he is AMAZING in the field.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I'm surprised in your argument against ballpark adjustments, that you never mentioned Galaragga leaving Coors and going to Atlanta and putting up a raw OPS of .991(better than any Coors year he had except one). Then an .895 OPS the next year.
I agree with you that there are some ballpark adjustments that make one scratch their head.
I did not realize that! I was thinking of looking at Walkers team mates while with Colorado and seeing who and how much better they were home/road but just don't love the numbers enough. Was wondering if they all did it.
Saw one game at Coors. Walker went 4 for 5, just RIPPED the ball, looked head and shoulders above everyone. Sample size couldn't be any smaller. Just lucky he played that day, must have been just of the DL and facing a crappy right-hander! ;-)
Someone (maybe not even on this thread) said Walker lead the league only once in an offensive category (doubles) when he wasn't playing at Coors field. That only gives him 4 years at the start of his career and one at the very end. I wonder how a lot of guys would look if you limited them to that. Willie Stargell would be at zero.
Sometimes I wonder how bad you have to dislike a guy to come up with facts like that to denigrate him.
Saw next years guys for HOF, I suppose Soriano and Konerko will get in ahead of Larry........after all, they didn't play at Coors field!!!!!
Here is another:
Ellis Burks previous to his time in COL his combined OPS was .799
Ellis Burks while on Col, his OPS were a combined .980. While in Colorado he had the typical large Home/Road differentials.
Ellis Burks Age 34 he went to SF right after Colorado and put up a raw OPS of .964, 1.025, then went to Cle and did .911 and .903
In 1996 Burks OPS 1.047 , BUrks home OPS with COL was 1.173 and his road OPS was .903.....OPS+ 149
In 2000 Burks OPS 1.025, Burk's home OPS with SF was 1.143 and his road OPS was .918.........OPS+163
So the ballpark effect added to the measurement really changes his OPS+, when in both years he substantially performed better at home, one in a pitchers park and one in a hitters park.
So that does make you scratch your head a little. NOt proof the ballpark effect shouldn't be applied...but does make you wonder in some cases.
BUt there are guys like Vinny Castilla that really show the opposite and why Coors did help immensely.
Sometimes there are blips though.
I've said something about Joe Morgan while with HOuston too. Even though he had a ballpark effect that makes his OPS+ better in Houston, he actually hit better at home in the dome than he did on the road. Didn't seem that hitting in Houston hurt Morgan.
The reason Andruw Jones get so little consideration is simple. Comes down to one number:
.254
Voters look at his career batting average and decide it just isn't good enough. And, let's be brutally honest here, it's not. Even in an age where BA doesn't matter as much as it used to, and walks are valued more highly than before, a .254 average is still terrible.
Extending this thought out a little bit: .222, .158, .214, .230, .247, .197
Those are Jones' batting averages his last six seasons. They're not even "old man years" - they're from 30-35 years old.
And if you think he wasn't doing roids, c'mon. Never hit more than 36 homers, hits 29 in 2004 then hits 51 in 2005? Nah, not fishy at all.
Having said all that, I'd probably put him in. All-time elite defensive CFs who 400 homers belong in the Hall. I say the say about Jim Edmonds.
Killebrew was one of the best sluggers of all time. His lifetime SLG was .509 (.514 before he went to KC), his OB% was .376.
"Elsewhere" SLG=.501 OB%.372 that's VERY VERY GOOD!
Reggie Jackson SLG .490.
His numbers were damn good away from home and unbelievable at home. Focus for a minute on what he did at Coors .381 batting average, they didn't let him hit off a tee, did they? I picked BA because that shouldn't be effected as much as HR in Coors imo.
Unfortunately he is the ONLY player that doesn't get judged on his totals.
Koufax was an average pitcher away from home and he is regarded by some as one of the all-time greats. Koufax also had a short career. There was a trivia game on facebook (so it must be correct) that named Koufax as the greatest pitcher of all time.
Too bad Larry didn't hit worse at home and the same on the road, he would be a LOCK!
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@JoeBanzai said:
Killebrew was one of the best sluggers of all time. His lifetime SLG was .509 (.514 before he went to KC), his OB% was .376.
"Elsewhere" SLG=.501 OB%.372 that's VERY VERY GOOD!
Reggie Jackson SLG .490.
His numbers were damn good away from home and unbelievable at home. Focus for a minute on what he did at Coors .381 batting average, they didn't let him hit off a tee, did they? I picked BA because that shouldn't be effected as much as HR in Coors imo.
Unfortunately he is the ONLY player that doesn't get judged on his totals.
Koufax was an average pitcher away from home and he is regarded by some as one of the all-time greats. Koufax also had a short career. There was a trivia game on facebook (so it must be correct) that named Koufax as the greatest pitcher of all time.
Too bad Larry didn't hit worse at home and the same on the road, he would be a LOCK!
Walker's elsewhere numbers for his career are indeed excellent.
A lot of sabermatricians would be hard pressed to explain why Walker and his 72.7 WAR are not in the HOF, but Jeter and his 72.3 will be a unanimous selection.
THere are big problems with WAR, but for the people that use it, then Walker really shouldn't be ignored.
@JoeBanzai said:
Killebrew was one of the best sluggers of all time. His lifetime SLG was .509 (.514 before he went to KC), his OB% was .376.
"Elsewhere" SLG=.501 OB%.372 that's VERY VERY GOOD!
Reggie Jackson SLG .490.
His numbers were damn good away from home and unbelievable at home. Focus for a minute on what he did at Coors .381 batting average, they didn't let him hit off a tee, did they? I picked BA because that shouldn't be effected as much as HR in Coors imo.
Unfortunately he is the ONLY player that doesn't get judged on his totals.
Koufax was an average pitcher away from home and he is regarded by some as one of the all-time greats. Koufax also had a short career. There was a trivia game on facebook (so it must be correct) that named Koufax as the greatest pitcher of all time.
Too bad Larry didn't hit worse at home and the same on the road, he would be a LOCK!
Walker's elsewhere numbers for his career are indeed excellent.
A lot of sabermatricians would be hard pressed to explain why Walker and his 72.7 WAR are not in the HOF, but Jeter and his 72.3 will be a unanimous selection.
THere are big problems with WAR, but for the people that use it, then Walker really shouldn't be ignored.
counting stats, jeter has lots and lots of counting stats...
Comments
If Larry Walker or Andru Jones, are eligible for the HOF? Don Mattingly should skate in
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
Heres a thought experiment ... assume we know for certain that Jones did not juice his entire career and put up the stats he did. He is a borderline HoFer that probably wont ever make it (though I'd put him in over Baines, but lets not get started on that)
Then make a hypothetical assumption that at age 30, when his career hit the skids, Jones started PEDs and put up 5 more years (2008-2012) that were similar to the previous five. Statistically, he would cross any statistical thresholds you'd want to make for Cooperstown inclusion.
This is why I have issue with the "he was a hall of famer before he used" argument made for some candidates. For anybody making that argument, do you support Jones now? Because then, isnt the next logical step "yeah, Jones was probably clean but fell apart. If he had used, and put up a few more years, I would have supported him."
I agree that he is better than Baines etc. He did have a good arm too.
I don't know how much worse his numbers would have been at 155 games per year...and it actually may have helped his HOF case because even though his percentages would have been lower, the voters typically like the higher raw totals.
I actually put Walker more in the category of injuries robbing a HOF career more than anything. Kind of the Fred Lynn of his era.
joebanzi,
I'm surprised in your argument against ballpark adjustments, that you never mentioned Galaragga leaving Coors and going to Atlanta and putting up a raw OPS of .991(better than any Coors year he had except one). Then an .895 OPS the next year.
I agree with you that there are some ballpark adjustments that make one scratch their head.
Chris Davis has had 3 good seasons in his career. Andruw Jones had 9 straight good seasons where he was one of the best hitters in the mlb and is probably one of the best defensive outfielders of all time. Not really a very good comparison.
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I did not realize that! I was thinking of looking at Walkers team mates while with Colorado and seeing who and how much better they were home/road but just don't love the numbers enough. Was wondering if they all did it.
Saw one game at Coors. Walker went 4 for 5, just RIPPED the ball, looked head and shoulders above everyone. Sample size couldn't be any smaller. Just lucky he played that day, must have been just of the DL and facing a crappy right-hander! ;-)
Someone (maybe not even on this thread) said Walker lead the league only once in an offensive category (doubles) when he wasn't playing at Coors field. That only gives him 4 years at the start of his career and one at the very end. I wonder how a lot of guys would look if you limited them to that. Willie Stargell would be at zero.
Sometimes I wonder how bad you have to dislike a guy to come up with facts like that to denigrate him.
Saw next years guys for HOF, I suppose Soriano and Konerko will get in ahead of Larry........after all, they didn't play at Coors field!!!!!
Jones was VERY good. If people had a little more appreciation for superior defensive ability (maybe watch a few games) they would realize that it's a big part of the game.
If the Byron Buxton fella ever stops getting injured, you are (if you haven't already) going to see a very special player. Of course he needs to hit a little bit to play too, but he is AMAZING in the field.
Here is another:
Ellis Burks previous to his time in COL his combined OPS was .799
Ellis Burks while on Col, his OPS were a combined .980. While in Colorado he had the typical large Home/Road differentials.
Ellis Burks Age 34 he went to SF right after Colorado and put up a raw OPS of .964, 1.025, then went to Cle and did .911 and .903
In 1996 Burks OPS 1.047 , BUrks home OPS with COL was 1.173 and his road OPS was .903.....OPS+ 149
In 2000 Burks OPS 1.025, Burk's home OPS with SF was 1.143 and his road OPS was .918.........OPS+163
So the ballpark effect added to the measurement really changes his OPS+, when in both years he substantially performed better at home, one in a pitchers park and one in a hitters park.
So that does make you scratch your head a little. NOt proof the ballpark effect shouldn't be applied...but does make you wonder in some cases.
BUt there are guys like Vinny Castilla that really show the opposite and why Coors did help immensely.
Sometimes there are blips though.
I've said something about Joe Morgan while with HOuston too. Even though he had a ballpark effect that makes his OPS+ better in Houston, he actually hit better at home in the dome than he did on the road. Didn't seem that hitting in Houston hurt Morgan.
The reason Andruw Jones get so little consideration is simple. Comes down to one number:
.254
Voters look at his career batting average and decide it just isn't good enough. And, let's be brutally honest here, it's not. Even in an age where BA doesn't matter as much as it used to, and walks are valued more highly than before, a .254 average is still terrible.
Extending this thought out a little bit: .222, .158, .214, .230, .247, .197
Those are Jones' batting averages his last six seasons. They're not even "old man years" - they're from 30-35 years old.
And if you think he wasn't doing roids, c'mon. Never hit more than 36 homers, hits 29 in 2004 then hits 51 in 2005? Nah, not fishy at all.
Having said all that, I'd probably put him in. All-time elite defensive CFs who 400 homers belong in the Hall. I say the say about Jim Edmonds.
Here's Larry Walker's numbers for his career:
AB/H/HR/AVG/OBP/SLG
6907/2160/383/.313/.400/.565
Coors: 2136/814/154/.381/.462/.710
Elsewhere: 4771/1346/229/.282/.372/.501
Killebrew was one of the best sluggers of all time. His lifetime SLG was .509 (.514 before he went to KC), his OB% was .376.
"Elsewhere" SLG=.501 OB%.372 that's VERY VERY GOOD!
Reggie Jackson SLG .490.
His numbers were damn good away from home and unbelievable at home. Focus for a minute on what he did at Coors .381 batting average, they didn't let him hit off a tee, did they? I picked BA because that shouldn't be effected as much as HR in Coors imo.
Unfortunately he is the ONLY player that doesn't get judged on his totals.
Koufax was an average pitcher away from home and he is regarded by some as one of the all-time greats. Koufax also had a short career. There was a trivia game on facebook (so it must be correct) that named Koufax as the greatest pitcher of all time.
Too bad Larry didn't hit worse at home and the same on the road, he would be a LOCK!
Walker's elsewhere numbers for his career are indeed excellent.
A lot of sabermatricians would be hard pressed to explain why Walker and his 72.7 WAR are not in the HOF, but Jeter and his 72.3 will be a unanimous selection.
THere are big problems with WAR, but for the people that use it, then Walker really shouldn't be ignored.
counting stats, jeter has lots and lots of counting stats...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.