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2019 Baseball HOF - Looks like Rivera, Roy Halladay, Edgar Martinez & Mussina voted in
saucywombat
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Mussina will be very close but looks like he will make it, probably helped that he pairs well with Rivera.
Larry Walker will end up with 60-65% this year and looks like he is on track for election on his last year on the ballot in 2020
Always looking for 1993-1999 Baseball Finest Refractors and1994 Football Finest Refractors.
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Long overdue for Moose! I hope when the other half of the votes are tallied, I am not disappointed again.
Agreed on moose. Not a fan of any closer making the hall. Walker was dominant.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Walker gets in. His WAR is actually impressive.
His 72.6 career Wins Above Replacement (WAR), per Baseball-Reference.com, puts him behind only 40 Hall of Fame position players, including 18 outfielders. Walker comes in just behind legends such as Joe DiMaggio and Reggie Jackson and beats out a host of outfielders who have plaques in Cooperstown, including Tony Gwynn, Duke Snider, Andre Dawson, Dave Winfield, Willie Stargell, Kirby Puckett, Ralph Kiner and Jim Rice.
Walker was a great hitter but suffers from the Coors effect. His batting average at Coors was over 100 points higher vs elsewhere.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
His OPS is 15th all time and his OPS+ #69. IF the "+" is supposed to equalize the park factor, he is still above A LOT of HOFers like Reggie Jackson, George Brett, Carl Yastrzemski and Al Kaline.
PLEASE stop getting so hung up on the "Coors effect" he was also a superior defensive player with a great arm as well as a very good runner.
In his MVP year he hit better AWAY from Coors with a 1.176 OPS and 213 OPS+ in 1998 he was at .892/141 on the road, 1999 .894/131 on the road, in 2000 he was BAD away from Coors, .770/103, in 2001 .965/158 on the road.......still GREAT numbers.
For almost every single year he was performing on the road at a HOF level, at home he was playing at an unbelievable level, so we punish him for not hitting .400 on the road because he did it at home?
He had a 130 OPS+ in his final year in St Louis, did he still do all his hitting in Coors Field that year? Don't forget he had years of 141 and 151 OPS+ before he played for the Rockies.
I'm sorry, I just don't get it.
Fred McGriff would be my choice over Edgar Martínez, Larry Walker, Jeff Kent, and Todd Helton. But if Baines got in then I think all these guys will get in eventually...
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Very good analysis Joe
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'm not saying I agree with it, but if you want to know why Walker hasn't made the HOF with just one year left on the ballot, that is absolutely the reason.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
A few more votes trickled in today and with 48.8% of the votes known so far Mussina dropped from 82.2% yesterday to 81.1% today. Getting a bit nervous, hoping for Baines and Mussina this year, I already have the HOF Weekend Hotels booked....
However, it should also be noted that with the exception of one year in which he led the league in doubles, Walker did not lead the league in any offensive categories while not playing for Colorado.
Career Home/Away splits:
Home: .348/.431/.637 OPS 1.065
Away: .278/.370/.495 OPS .865
Career numbers at CO; .381/.462/.710 OPS 1.172
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Rivera is a HOF’er full stop
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
No question and the unanimous vote thus far clearly illustrates that.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
No one who averaged 80 innings a year deserves the hall of fame, even if they were some great innings.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Don’t think Mussina will make it. Half the vote is in, and he has gained only 18 votes. Must gain 31 more to get in.
MLB Network had a good HOF debate show recently. They made really good cases for Mussina, McGriff, Walker, and Kent. Of course, Harold Baines should allow all these guys in, no questions asked.
Mussina hanging in there
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hoping Mussina gets in finally
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I really find it ridiculous that he is not already....
How Trevor Hoffman got in last year and not moose just baffled me
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Trevor Hoffman probably one of the top 3 closers of all-time. Mussina maybe the number 60 or 70 best Pitchers of all-time.
Rivera the first unanimous selection.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That's the big takeaway that I got. I remember when Maddux was up there were a few voters that said they would not vote him in just because they thought there should never be a unanimous selection. I hope they got their rights taken away!
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All 4 deserving of HOF selection. Congrats!
For real? That's just another reason why I hold no stock in the HOF or its selection committee. That's lame. I've always wondered why certain HOF locks never got 100% vote. Who doesn't vote for Babe Ruth? Insane.
Andy
My memory was a little off, but the reasoning here is just as moronic.
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Mussina was MUCH more valuable to his team. Pitched very high quality innings at the rate of 2 1/2 times that of Hoffman or Rivera. dont get blinded by the save stat. It is practically valueless. I have not made this statistical analysis of Hoffman, but I have posted at length about rivera's career value and just how many of his "saves" actually came in high leverage situations (spoiler alert, not nearly as many as you think) as Rivera was a better pitcher than Hoffman, those sentiments would apply even more so to him.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Rivera was an interesting choice for the first unanimous HOF election. His career WAR puts him slightly below Andruw Jones and a little above Fred McGriff, that is to say on par with players fighting on the margins of the HOF. And he was never a MVP (which Dennis Eckersley was).
With that said, by the metrics he is significantly out in front of all other closers and is emblematic of the Yankees dynastic run from 1996-2009, so I can't argue with him being a first ballot inductee. I imagine we'll see other unanimous choices in the years to come. Maybe Jeter coming up. Looks like the old guard who didn't believe in unanimous elections have retired or passed into history.
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Let's hope so.
After Schmidt's election, WIP had a local writer on who didn't vote for Schmidt. His reason was that Schmidt didn't talk to him or took him to task regarding an article the guy wrote. Something of that nature. Basically, the writer was saying, "Schmidt hurt my feelings, so, I will show him who's boss, by wielding what little power I have, via the HOF vote." I called in to let the writer know just how much of a small, petty man he was.
More men walked on the Moon, then crossed the plate in the post season against Mariano Rivera. Ponder that.
Your post is ridiculous!
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
no, you just havent looked at the stats. I have written about Rivera at some length previously on this forum, so I really dont want to go through the entire thing again. Rivera's career had lots of "saves" that really were of low value as they were done in very low leverage situations. here is a little excerpt that I wrote back in November in the 2019 baseball hall of fame ballot thread.
"Rivera (and all closers for that matter) are underwhelming to me for a few reasons. They pitch very very few innings and most of the innings they pitch are actually low stress ones. It isnt their fault, it is the way managers play it by the book. modern closers are saved until the 9th inning and normally when they have a lead to "save". you never see a closer come in during a huge rally in the fourth when the opposing team puts up the 5 runs that keeps the closer from pitching in the ninth because his team is behind. here are the numbers:
After 8 innings when leading by 1 run a team will win 86% of the time. leading by 2 94% of the time and leading by 3 97 % of the time.
Rivera had a career save % of 89.1%. going by the numbers, he actually "saved" games at a lower % than the average closer. now before you say he must have pitched in mostly late and close game situations, hear this. of his 652 saves, less than 1/3 were with a 1 run lead when he took the mound. 216 w/ 2 run lead 184 with 3 run lead and 46 with a 4 run lead. rivera was a closer for 18 years. he ranks 142nd all time in inherited runners. His average save was with at least a 2 run lead and no inherited runners. these are low stress situations. Situations where a lesser reliever could have done the job. Riveras peak value would have been as a "fireman" who entered to kill rallys. more games are lost in the first 8 innings than in the ninth. all "closers" should be used in that fashion, not saved for the 9th when most situations are actually fairly low leverage."
you can see that Riveras career was largely one where he was utilized in low leverage situations giving him many "hollow" saves. Can you now please explain exactly in that post was ridiculous?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Most of what you wrote is utterly nugatory and worthless. This is all that matters:
It’s practically impossible for a pitcher to allow less than a run per nine innings.... So now think of Mariano Rivera’s postseason career as two seasons. The first goes from Oct 4, 1995 to Oct 18, 2001, and spans 71 innings. Rivera allows seven runs, six of them earned; 0.89 runs per nine, 0.76 ERA. The second “season” goes from Oct 21, 2001 to Oct 6, 2011, spans 70.1 innings. Rivera allows six runs, five of them earned; 0.77 runs per nine, 0.64 ERA.
Your post was not only ridiculous, it was comical!
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
Wow - learned a new word today - nugatory - of no value.
What is of value?
Showing each other mutual respect rather than resorting to claims that what someone is saying is ridiculous or worthless.
My apologies. Sometimes my temper gets the better of me. I’m constantly evolving.
The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity
Apology more than accepted.
I've been "evolving" too - just ask my wife - I think I'm right up there with the chimps at this point?
I met craig44/David and his dad - by accident - at the HOF. You won't find a nicer guy to talk with pertaining to sports cards or the HOF.
wow, that escalated quickly. it seems with 35 posts you must be somewhat new here. quite a way to make a first impression.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As usual some great stuff!
Maybe all those post season games when people were watching had a lot to do with it!?!?!?
Not to knock Reggie at all, BUT he sure has gotten mileage from ONE GAME!
It is very possible Joe. Recency bias is real and the post season is always the last thing we see and the first thing we remember.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I saw Bill Mueller take Rivera up the middle and Dave Roberts cross the plate in obviously an incredible pressure bottom of the ninth situation: Never was at Fenway when it was more electric. Next year Mo is introduced and gets a standing O by the faithful, he bows, laughs and takes the sarcasm like a man. He was a class act..first to get unanimous, ummmm....:
I love it when people quote themselves.
Not Mo’s fault that a good portion of the voting block of HOF over the years have been biased and unprofessional. That’s a common trait of media/journalism in this country.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
The only reason that there hasn't been a unanimous hall of famer until now is that the voters made bad decisions for the last 80 years. It doesn't mean that Rivera is better than everyone else. It just means the old guys who didn't vote for certain players for stupid reasons over the years no longer have a vote, which is a good thing. Kind of like the guy that didn't vote for Maddux cause he said he wouldn't vote for anyone who played in the PED era. He is an example of why there hasn't been a unanimous hall of famer, and I am glad people like him no longer have a vote.
Also, wondering why Andruw Jones doesn't get more consideration for the hall. He has the highest defensive WAR of all time among outfielders and he raked while doing it. He hit a ton of homeruns and he had a really good 9 year stretch where he was the best defensive outfielder in the mlb and he was a great hitter as well. From 1998-2006, he went to 5 all star games, won 9 gold gloves and averaged a line of .270/.347/.513/.860 with 35 hr 104 rbi 99 runs averaged over 9 years.
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Andruw Jones career reminds me of a certain current Orioles 1B, awesome for a few years and then they both forgot how to hit suddenly in their early 30's....
I think I remember reading somewhere that during Chris Davis' big 3 year run he had a MLB exemption to use Adderall which is an amphetamine. after the exemption ran out, the Orioles were left with the Chris Davis of today. a guy who forgot how to hit
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Larry Walker was an exceptional player. I believe the biggest knock on him is that he only eclipsed 500 at bats twice in his career. He only played 140+ games three times. That severely lessens his value.
I know he missed games due to injury, but they were usually the nagging type injuries that others played through. He also missed games by sitting vs tough lefties...which helped elevate his percentages across the board....but hurt his value toward winning. Playing 160 games a year, like others did with those same factors, then his BA, Ob%, SLG%, OPS, OPS+...are all going to be lower than they are.
He was almost a pure platoon player with St. Louis and that is why his OPS+ remained high. In his last year in St. Louis he had 299 plate appearances vs righties and only 68 vs lefties. That is Ken Phelps territory. Pick and choose who you get to bat against helps your rate stats.
So maybe he is more of "what could have been if he was healthy," "with a mix of made of glass and a dash of Ken Phelps."
Andruw Jones leaving the Braves system + big $$$ + the drink = flat tire
He was a sensational outfielder though for a decade. Mentioned earlier he has a higher career WAR (62.8) than Rivera (56.2), so he's no Chris Davis (career WAR of 15.4)
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Jones was a great player for sure. if he just could have added 2 or 3 more great years there at the end...
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree he missed some games and had a short career, I think 6900 AB is still enough, if you eliminate Pitchers, Catchers and guys who missed time for WWll he would be close to dead last!
How many tough left handed pitchers did he avoid? I would avoid Randy Johnson not just to help my numbers, but to survive!
For the sake of not getting into yet another unproveable argument, I'll agree that his numbers would have been worse if he played more often when hurt and against tough left handed pitchers. The question is how much worse?
For years, I thought he must have totally sucked away from Coors the way he gets ripped. Then I saw that he played worse, but still managed to put up some good and even great numbers on the road.
What gets mentioned by only me (I think) is the other parts of his game where he excelled; exceptional fielder, could steal you a base, I didn't see him play much, so don't know what kind of arm he had, but he certainly wasn't a one dimensional player. Great defensive players who can hit are rare.
He could drop several points OPS+ and still be ahead of Kaline.
Another guy that gets talked about, Dick Allen, played less, would you keep him out for the same reason? Allen was a better hitter, but certainly not as valuable in the field.
Better than Harold Baines? With the trend of putting in so many "very good" players (not to mention the juicers that will surely get in sooner or later, I hope I am wrong) when does it get to the point that guys like Walker, Oliva and Allen are better than ALL of the new entrants?
Since looking at your post, my opinion of him isn't as high as it was, but I still think he merits the hall especially where it's been going the last few years.