Something to help 1921 Peace dollar collectors

RogerB

This illustration might help fans of 1921 Peace dollars categorize the detail ('strike') on their coins. Detail ranges from "best" at upper left to "worst" at lower right (reading left to right, top to bottom). These focus on central detail which is the most frequently discussed area on the coin.

Most coins will fall between middle right and bottom left.

Upper left is an electrotype of the original iron cast at the Philadelphia Mint. A proof should have detail between that of the two top images; however, a few proofs have inferior central details and superior peripheral details.

One coin is known with detail inferior to the lower right example: hair and cheek completely merge.

[Illustration from A Guide Book of Peace Dollars, 3rd Edition]

ChrisH821

Great reference!

Coinosaurus

Great pics of a great coin.

Smudge

Would be easy to see the bottom coins as worn. I suppose those calls are best left to the pros. Edit to add great reference, thanks.

johnny9434

I like

BuffaloIronTail

Thanks Roger. That's a very valuable reference.

Pete

abcde12345

Kind of cheating considering the first, upper left, is a satin proof.

ACop

I still think there are yet to be attributed differences within the 21 dies. I cant quite put my finger on it. More than just the pressure changes.

thefinn

@RogerB said:
This illustration might help fans of 1921 Peace dollars categorize the detail ('strike') on their coins. Detail ranges from "best" at upper left to "worst" at lower right (reading left to right, top to bottom). These focus on central detail which is the most frequently discussed area on the coin.

Most coins will fall between middle right and bottom left.

Upper left is the original iron cast at the Philadelphia Mint. A proof should have detail between that of the two top images; however, a few proofs have inferior central details and superior peripheral details.

One coin is known with detail inferior to the lower right example: hair and cheek completely merge.

[Illustration from A Guide Book of Peace Dollars, 3rd Edition]

When you say an "iron cast", did they cast moulten iron onto a master die?

dcarr

We had that discussion before. The upper left is the original BRONZE casting - not "iron", correct ?

The diameter of it, measured from the outer rim edge is 7.5 inches.

The bronze casting was used on a reduction lathe to make the master hub. The reduction was exactly 1:5, going from a 7.5 inch model to a 1.5 inch master hub.

If that reduction were performed to high standards, and the coins from it were fully struck, those coins would have better detail than the upper right coin.

BuffaloIronTail

The 1921 Peace seems to be the Buffalo Nickel of Dollar coins.

Pete

RogerB

@abcde12345 said:
Kind of cheating considering the first, upper left, is a satin proof.

Upper left is a photo of en electrotype of the original cast - not a coin

RogerB

The Mint's cast is attracted to a magnet (upper left), but is plated or colored.

Hemispherical

Thanks @RogerB.

dcarr

These first two images are courtesy of the US Mint. The Mint's curator stated that they are "galvanos". So they are technically not "castings". It is unknown if the galvanos were done in copper or iron. Typically, they are copper. I do not know if an iron galvano is even possible.

As per original correspondence, there were bronze castings made by Fraser from De Francisci's plasters. But the Mint also apparently prepared galvanos of both sides. The reverse already had the broken sword removed before that galvano was made.

Obverse galvano with "#8" written on it:

Reverse galvano, also with "#8" written on it:

The galvano above shows the repair where the broken sword was removed. It is also inconsistent with any minted coins. For example, note the incuse ray above the Eagle's tail pointing directly at the "8". The existence of this galvano, and its purpose in the production of the original Peace Dollars, is not documented anywhere that I am aware of.

Original reverse bronze casting with broken sword (note relief height approximately twice that of the galvano above). The ray pattern near the olive branches, and the olive branches themselves, are closer to the above galvano than the actual coins.

.

earlycoins

As always, thanks Roger, for your continuing betterment of the hobby

Peace_dollar88

great reference. I purchased this book partly for this reference. love the "apple cheek" 1921's

Namvet69

Thanks alot. I needed that. I'm printing that page in color. Peace Roy

Paradisefound

Thank you the learning material @RogerB ..... I am looking forward to pull them out for a fun study before sunset

BG

Much thanks Roger, POY.

It was close to the second row left image, with original toning.

abcde12345

I wish the mint would strike these in bronze today!

fiftysevener

Excellent commentary Mr. Burdette and Mr. Carr ! Dan I bought the 1919 coin on New Years day. Can't wait to get it !

RogerB

Mr. Carr - Thanks for the supplementary information. Yes, there are several formats of this design at the Philadelphia Mint. Eventually all of the mint's holdings will be illustrated and described for research use. We'll like learn a lot of new things and possibly change previous ideas.

OldIndianNutKase

Thank you sooo much for the illustration of the best and worst of 1921 high relief Peace Dollars. A beautiful coin in it's inception, but one that could not be reproduced in quantity without significant degradation in strike. Finding one with a great strike is very difficult.

OINK

northcoin

@Peace_dollar88 said:
great reference. I purchased this book partly for this reference. love the "apple cheek" 1921's

Is this added information from what is in the book? (I do have the book somewhere.)

RogerB

"Apple cheek" is not completely consistent on 1921s; peripheral, inscription and hair detail are the important bits.

ricko

Nice pictures @RogerB... they can help many who are interested in Peace dollars... I have your book, but will also bookmark this thread for the supplemental information. Cheers, RickO

RogerB

The photo I posted is the same composite as in the Guide Book of Peace Dollars (Whitman Publishing LLC), but here there are no halftone dots to interfere with image quality. I posted this so members could better see details and subtleties. Concentrating on central detail is a little misleading, because there is a similar range of design visible in peripheral areas. But limitations of size and print publication dictated use of a smaller area of the coins.

mustangmanbob

Great, thanks for a positive, useful, post.

BuffaloIronTail

@BuffaloIronTail said:
The 1921 Peace seems to be the Buffalo Nickel of Dollar coins.

Pete

Judging from the way some of those 21's look with poorly rendered central detail Toppy, I wouldn't be laughing.

Pete

RogerB

This can accompany the 1921 Peace dollar thread on this page. The illustration might serve as a reference in assessing obverse detail. It could be particularly helpful when examining auction lots for detail and grade.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1011375/1921-peace-dollar#latest
"1921 Peace Dollar"

kaz

hickoryridge

the best I have found so far

TwoSides2aCoin

Have purchased many 1921 Peace Dollars. Most were LDS specimens. The detail is lacking on many, even though the luster was evidence of near mint state.

RogerB

All of the best detailed specimens appear to come from dies used on the first day of production. These commonly have very limited luster - the dies did not last long enough to develop it. The balance of production was made at lower pressures, with concomitant loss of detail and increase in surface luster.

BryceM

This is an important point. The luster of the 1921 can’t be compared to the rest of the series. It is both qualitatively and quantitatively different. It really is a separate type and needs to be considered independently.

Imagine if it would have been possible to produce bulk coins with deFrancisi’s intended design. Despite all of the difficulties we still got a really beautiful coin.

RogerB

An imitation in gold made from the original obverse model will likely be available in 2021. If this happens, I hope the craftsmanship is as good as on the 2016 quarter and half (but not the nasty dime).

messydesk

@RogerB said:
An imitation in gold made from the original obverse model will likely be available in 2021. If this happens, I hope the craftsmanship is as good as on the 2016 quarter and half (but not the nasty dime).

I'm hoping it turns out as nice as the 2009 high relief Saint. Making it that size and heft wouldn't be entirely bad, either. It would give more latitude with reproducing the high relief in gold. It would also make said HR Saint not so much a white elephant