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Has the unique 1873-CC No Arrows Dime ever been precisely weighed?

CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 9, 2019 9:32AM in U.S. Coin Forum

Anybody got a copy of the 1996 Bowers & Merena Eliasberg catalogue handy? Does it give a precise weight?

I assume that the weight given here is merely the standard weight for the type:

http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/4661

Who is the current owner, please?

TD

Edited to add: Does anybody have the Numismatic Galleries Adolphe Menjou Collection, June 15, 1950? Don't know the lot number. Further edit: Lot 399. No weight given.

I looked up the Heritage 1999 Bolen Sale, lot 5928. It gives the weight as 2.49 grams, which sound like it was copied from the Redbook. Probably received for consignment already slabbed.

Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

Comments

  • TiborTibor Posts: 3,199 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Surely PCGS would have weighed it as part of their authentication procedure.
    Since it is or was in their plastic it was within tolerance. As for exact weight, +/-
    I don't know. Location might be had from the most recent auctioneer, providing
    there was no anonymity clause. It might have traded secretly since. I believe
    QDB has a file on ultra rarities such as the coin in question. These are just suggestions,
    you probably have already exhausted them before you posted your question.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Actually, the question arose late last night as I was researching an article, and, knowing what an amazing pool of talent we have here, all I did with it was post the question here literally one minute before midnight before turning in.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Answer - Probably not. Historically, the TPGs appear to have been unscientific in their approach to unusual or unique coins. Accurate measurements of actual physical characteristics such as weight, diameter, thickness, alloy, were not made - or done only on rare occasions. (FYI - taking good physical measurements requires use of correct technique and proper handling of significant digits in reporting. I use the mean of 12 measurements with high and low extremes removed for a total of 10 readings. I then round back to the last significant digit.)

  • OuthaulOuthaul Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tibor said:
    Surely PCGS would have weighed it as part of their authentication procedure.

    Of course they would...and don't call me Shirley.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It can and has been done. We weighed everything at ANACS, on a great scale we kept in the basement to avoid vibration.

    When I recovered the Lindermann 1804 dollar, one of the things I did to verify the piece was compare our weight to the weight published in "The Fantastic 1804 Dollar." Our weight was one-one hundredth of a grain off from the published weight. That was close enough for me.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 9, 2019 8:38AM

    However, you were working at ANACS under the ANA and in a non-commercial setting, and along time ago. Newman and Bresset were also careful researchers. For today, you are talking about profit-based, pseudo-research stuff.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That was then, this is now.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Update. NGC handled it between the 1996 sale and the 1999 sale, but did not weigh it. Still waiting to hear from PCGS.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 8,623 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I loves my digital scale from Harbour Freight

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  • CoinosaurusCoinosaurus Posts: 9,614 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Eliasberg catalog does not include the weight, a surprising omission. The coin was raw and it could have easily been checked.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you. Nor does Breen.

    NGC informed me that they do now weigh and photograph such rarities when they have them raw, but they did not do so then.

    Still waiting to hear from PCGS.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I hope NGC uses a quality scale or balance, and good laboratory technique.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am greatly surprised that such a coin would not have been weighed during authentication. Very strange. Cheers, RickO

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    I am greatly surprised that such a coin would not have been weighed during authentication. Very strange. Cheers, RickO

    Well, the pedigree on this coin was impeccable, so authentication was not that big an issue. It’s not like when I was at ANACS and the 1870-S Half Dime came in! Still, it should have been weighed and measured for diameter and thickness.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    I hope NGC uses a quality scale or balance, and good laboratory technique.

    Likewise our gracious hosts.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019 7:18AM

    Jeff Garrett and Ron Guth's book lists weights and measures for the 1870-S Half dime at 19 grams 15.9 mm
    The 1873 cc "no arrows" dime as 38 grains 18 mm.
    I hope this lends some light and doesn't serve to confuse anyone. The book's title is 100 Greatest U.S. Coins

    On the dime is does say "grains" as opposed to the half-dime saying grams. __I assume a misprint and should read 19 _****_grains ****__

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Soldi said:
    Jeff Garrett and Ron Guth's book lists weights and measures for the 1870-S Half dime at 19 grams 15.9 mm
    The 1873 cc "no arrows" dime as 38 grains 18 mm.
    I hope this lends some light and doesn't serve to confuse anyone. The book's title is 100 Greatest U.S. Coins

    On the dime is does say "grains" as opposed to the half-dime saying grams. __I assume a misprint and should read 19 _****_grains ****__

    Thank you. I will ask them if those are actual measurements, or standard measurements rounded off.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • SoldiSoldi Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019 10:00AM

    @CaptHenway said:

    @Soldi said:
    Jeff Garrett and Ron Guth's book lists weights and measures for the 1870-S Half dime at 19 grams 15.9 mm
    The 1873 cc "no arrows" dime as 38 grains 18 mm.
    I hope this lends some light and doesn't serve to confuse anyone. The book's title is 100 Greatest U.S. Coins

    On the dime is does say "grains" as opposed to the half-dime saying grams. __I assume a misprint and should read 19 _****_grains ****__

    Thank you. I will ask them if those are actual measurements, or standard measurements rounded off.

    I believe them to be rounded off as Breen gives the 1870-S half dime as 19.599 grains or 1.27 gms and then gives no information regarding the weight of the 1873-cc no arrows dime (unique survivor traced to a parcel of assay coins Philadelphia 1874 and then to A Loudon Snowden. So? Perhaps considering the Assay source double the above 1870-s half dime? Not very scientific or well researched conclusion, perhaps just a thought. Regards, Michael

    A lesson I just learned in all the books I own, I cannot find anywhere the coin was ever weighed

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Modern measurements should be made using metric units, but it can occasionally help to use Troy grains and inches - even if illogical.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RogerB said:
    Modern measurements should be made using metric units, but it can occasionally help to use Troy grains and inches - even if illogical.

    So long as it is an accurate measurement I can convert one to the other. One gram = 15.432356 grains.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I am informed that PCGS did not bother to weigh it when they had it out of a slab.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019 12:15PM

    @CaptHenway said:
    I am informed that PCGS did not bother to weigh it when they had it out of a slab.

    Unfortunate. We depend on TPGs to arbitrate authenticity and condition, yet not even a great rarity gets proper scientific investigation.

    PS: System conversions are OK for casual use, but should not be relied on for technically accurate measurements. I doubt that numismatic use much extends beyond "casual" except for very rare coins or in cases where authenticity is suspect.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do anyone know who the current owner is?

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a specific reason I am asking which I will explain later, but I guess it is just the Authenticator in me that asks

    "How in the heck could you have this coin in your hands and not weigh it for the record?"

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 10, 2019 7:52PM

    I fully understand. While researching the book on International Nickel Co. and Gould, Inc. private pattern pieces, measured and tested every pieces I could get my hands on. I also traveled several thousand miles to examine and measure collections -- even though these were not official government issues and had no legal standard for weight, etc. I just wanted it to be 'right.'

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @savitale said:
    Do you think it's counterfeit?

    No, nothing like that.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.

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