Major reeded edge off-center error!

ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 1, 2019 9:43PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I ordered this aluminum token with only a frontal shot and was shocked by the side profile when I received this. I love how curved the non-struck planchet is and the reeding on the edge.

How often does something like this happen?

Is it even possible to get something with this much depth slabbed?

Comments

  • EXOJUNKIEEXOJUNKIE Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This is commonly referred to as a “baseball cap” off-center error, as one can see by the way the unstruck portion of the planchet resembles the visor of a cap.

    IMO the TPGs are not likely to slab this due to its depth. It also may not be an attributable token — impossible to say without more pics.

    Congrats on your purchase.

    I'm addicted to exonumia ... it is numismatic crack!

    ANA LM

    30+ years of active military service and still going!
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 11,665 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Never saw the "baseball cap" before. Cool!

    2nd class collector of NON-PREMIER COINS.....

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 4,601 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although a reverse photo wasn't
    posted, there is a very good chance
    that the other side of the token is
    Uniface - it was struck partially on
    top of another planchet, and that's
    one of the reason's it has the 'cupped'
    appearance.

    Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV.
    Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 42 +-Year PNG Member, and an ICTA Board Member.A full time coin dealer since 1972.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2019 7:22AM

    @FredWeinberg said:
    Although a reverse photo wasn't
    posted, there is a very good chance
    that the other side of the token is
    Uniface - it was struck partially on
    top of another planchet, and that's
    one of the reason's it has the 'cupped'
    appearance.

    So if both sides are struck, this would be more rare?

    Both sides are struck. I’ll post photos later. Seems like this is getting more interesting.

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 4,760 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    Although a reverse photo wasn't
    posted, there is a very good chance
    that the other side of the token is
    Uniface - it was struck partially on
    top of another planchet, and that's
    one of the reason's it has the 'cupped'
    appearance.

    So if both sides are struck, this would be more rare?

    Both sides are both struck. I’ll post photos later. Seems like this is getting more interesting.

    come on, lets see it!

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2019 9:32AM

    @Treashunt said:

    @Zoins said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    Although a reverse photo wasn't
    posted, there is a very good chance
    that the other side of the token is
    Uniface - it was struck partially on
    top of another planchet, and that's
    one of the reason's it has the 'cupped'
    appearance.

    So if both sides are struck, this would be more rare?

    Both sides are both struck. I’ll post photos later. Seems like this is getting more interesting.

    come on, lets see it!

    Okay okay, here it is!

    It's Mardi Gras Doubloon, one of my fun interests.

    This one is by Mike Frolich. I have another cupped baseball cap struck on both sides by Henry Alvin Sharpe, though it is less pronounced. The Sharpe piece looks like it was broadstruck out of collar.

  • FredWeinbergFredWeinberg Posts: 4,601 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No, it doesn't mean it's rarer
    struck on both sides, just that
    I guessed, from the 1 photo,
    that it might be uniface on the
    other side.

    The 'baseball cap' look is from
    the type of press used.

    Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV.
    Authenticator for Major Mint Errors
    for PCGS. A 42 +-Year PNG Member, and an ICTA Board Member.A full time coin dealer since 1972.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2019 9:01AM

    @FredWeinberg said:
    No, it doesn't mean it's rarer
    struck on both sides, just that
    I guessed, from the 1 photo,
    that it might be uniface on the
    other side.

    The 'baseball cap' look is from
    the type of press used.

    Why would it go out to one side of it’s struck on both sides? What kind of press do you think is used?

    I’ve seen die caps that were created when two planchets were struck together. Can a die cap happen from a single planchet?

  • OldhoopsterOldhoopster Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The reeding could be due to the softness of the aluminum and basining of the die and overall thickness of the planchet/blank. The strike may be forcing the aluminum into the collar since it is very ductile and there is a lot of metal moving (due to the thickness). I wouldn't expect to see something like this on coin alloys due to alloy hardness and and planchet thickness.

    Anyway, that's my guess and I'm sticking to it. :)

    Member of the ANA since 1982
  • JBKJBK Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A total guess, as I am still learning about such things: the press did not have a floating collar, so the off-center planchet was forced into the fixed collar and struck as it appears. The portion of the planchet that was in the collar and between the dies got the full treatment (to include the reeding). I assume the extended "bill" of the baseball cap might just as easily have been shorn off, but in your case it remained attached.

  • JBKJBK Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2019 9:46AM

    BTW - as a "major error" on a private token, I assume it has only limited novelty value, since these could have been made intentionally?

    I have a major off-center silver bullion round that I got for only a slight premium. I always assumed the value was limited as it is a private issue with no "legal" controls over its production.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019 8:04AM

    @JBK said:
    BTW - as a "major error" on a private token, I assume it has only limited novelty value, since these could have been made intentionally?

    The values are limited but I'm thinking that is more due to lack of demand. There are doubloon collectors but I don't think they are as serious as coin collectors in grades and may not generally focus on errors. I think most of them have fun with the regular, perfect issues and spend enough time on those that they don't think about errors. I'm not in that community so that's just speculation right now.

    The errors could be made intentionally, but some issues I see with this include:

    • I generally don't see enough similar looking errors to think they were made intentionally
    • the values aren't high enough for it to seem worthwhile
    • I don't often see the same seller with many errors

    If one were to put some serious money into these, it would be worth looking into what happened to the Frolich and Sharpe dies.

    This is unlike some brass tokens that I think Ken Potter is somehow related to where dies have been obtained and many errors are available and possibly created after the fact. I only mention Ken's name because I see him selling many of these on his website.

    I have a major off-center silver bullion round that I got for only a slight premium. I always assumed the value was limited as it is a private issue with no "legal" controls over its production.

    Similar to doubloon collectors, I'm not sure silver round collectors really focus on errors. Also, there are a lot of different issuers for silver rounds. For doubloons I try to limit myself to known artists like Sharpe and Frolich where it may be worthwhile to build up a bit of knowledge.

    Of note, Dan Carr and Gallery Mint are two issuers who do seem to have following for their errors. These "errors" may be intentional but are limited in quantity which may help with price levels.

    I don't really expect doubloons to worth a lot. I've been looking at these for 10 years and prices really haven't changed. It's more about cheap fun where I don't have to worry about investing lots of money or losing money, like getting a cup of coffee and possibly learning something about New Orleans culture, and artists like Frolich and Sharpe.

    I think the FOI (Fun on Investment) can be quite high for these. The Frolich error is the price of a common steak dinner but offers hours of enjoyment and speculation.

  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 15,913 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Holy Cow - what don't you collect?? :D

    Never seen a baseball cap error - thanks for posting it!

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).
    I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17)
    Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 20,360 ✭✭✭✭✭

    agreed, it does look like a ball cab

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 3, 2019 8:10AM

    @Lakesammman said:
    Holy Cow - what don't you collect?? :D

    Never seen a baseball cap error - thanks for posting it!

    I love collecting and learning about new things! If I don't get something expensive, I get something cheap :)

    I've also never seen one like this before so it's quite a treat. It's like the Forrest Gump movie quote:

    “My mom always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.”

  • ParadisefoundParadisefound Posts: 7,455 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It is the most interesting error I've seen :)

  • ashelandasheland Posts: 14,535 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Very cool pick up!

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 29,284 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    No, it doesn't mean it's rarer
    struck on both sides, just that
    I guessed, from the 1 photo,
    that it might be uniface on the
    other side.

    The 'baseball cap' look is from
    the type of press used.

    Why would it go out to one side of it’s struck on both sides? What kind of press do you think is used?

    I’ve seen die caps that were created when two planchets were struck together. Can a die cap happen from a single planchet?

    The planchet just slipped out of the collar and was struck off center.

    The bend up is based on the press.

    There's US error coins like this and Civil War tokens too.

    Y'all are a very easily excitable bunch! ;):D

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 29,284 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Here's another one ounce copper bunny token which is broadstruck but based on the press finned and cupped as it slipped out of collar.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Broadstruck said:

    @Zoins said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    No, it doesn't mean it's rarer
    struck on both sides, just that
    I guessed, from the 1 photo,
    that it might be uniface on the
    other side.

    The 'baseball cap' look is from
    the type of press used.

    Why would it go out to one side of it’s struck on both sides? What kind of press do you think is used?

    I’ve seen die caps that were created when two planchets were struck together. Can a die cap happen from a single planchet?

    The planchet just slipped out of the collar and was struck off center.

    The bend up is based on the press.

    There's US error coins like this and Civil War tokens too.

    Y'all are a very easily excitable bunch! ;):D

    I actually haven’t seen edge reeding on US coins and Civil War tokens like this. I might not be getting out enough! Can you post some?

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 29,284 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's worth finding a copy of this out of print book below as it will explain everything :)

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019 12:03PM

    Show us the coins :)

    If reeded edge baseball caps are as common as you suggest, it should be easy to locate some. I’ll take a look later too.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 29,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019 12:07PM

    @Zoins said:

    @Broadstruck said:

    @Zoins said:

    @FredWeinberg said:
    No, it doesn't mean it's rarer
    struck on both sides, just that
    I guessed, from the 1 photo,
    that it might be uniface on the
    other side.

    The 'baseball cap' look is from
    the type of press used.

    Why would it go out to one side of it’s struck on both sides? What kind of press do you think is used?

    I’ve seen die caps that were created when two planchets were struck together. Can a die cap happen from a single planchet?

    The planchet just slipped out of the collar and was struck off center.

    The bend up is based on the press.

    There's US error coins like this and Civil War tokens too.

    Y'all are a very easily excitable bunch! ;):D

    I actually haven’t seen edge reeding on US coins and Civil War tokens like this. I might not be getting out enough! Can you post some?

    I was talking about being cupped like a baseball cap.

    That aluminum planchet might have been pre-reeded prior to your token having been struck.

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 4, 2019 8:34PM

    Got it @Broadstruck. I agree non-reeded baseball caps are much more common. I think even those with a slight angle are more common those with larger angles. I think this one is unusual due to the reeding and angle of the visor. Given how sharp the reeds are, I'm guessing this may have been forced into the collar per @JBK's thoughts. My Sharpe baseball cap doesn't really have a discernible edge, the planchet just starts angling upward (or downward).

    Here's one that's currently on the bay that's impressive to me. It has reeding and, even more impressive, it's semi-detached. Don't see many like this either. It reminds me a bit of the old Pittsburgh Pirates hats.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/1938-200-REIS-BRAZIL-MASSIVE-ERROR-O-C-PERFECT-BASEBALL-CAP-STRIKE-WOW-2299/292848916781

  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,114 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is pretty...excuse my french...badass! Very cool.

  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 29,284 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:

    Here's one that's currently on the bay that's impressive to me. It has reeding and, even more impressive, it's semi-detached. Don't see many like this either. It reminds me a bit of the old Pittsburgh Pirates hats.

    Neat but worrisome depending how fragile it is?

    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 20,576 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2019 1:34PM

    @Broadstruck said:

    @Zoins said:

    Here's one that's currently on the bay that's impressive to me. It has reeding and, even more impressive, it's semi-detached. Don't see many like this either. It reminds me a bit of the old Pittsburgh Pirates hats.

    Neat but worrisome depending how fragile it is?

    Hard to say without having it in hand and feeling if it's wobbly. Metal can be fairly strong. Of course, if someone steps on it, all bets are off!

    I would consider getting it if it was cheaper. The amount I'd pay is limited because it's not in my primary collecting areas.

  • Namvet69Namvet69 Posts: 2,967 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have a nice Tupperware container you can use as an impromptu slab and I'll break out the P-touch for an official looking label.

Sign In or Register to comment.