@Walkerfan said:
I don’t really agree with financing, either. Maybe for a couple months but that’s about it. You can’t neglect your savings, your housing, your entertainment, your travel or any of your other necessities. If you can’t afford those, then you have no business buying five or six figure coins....Priorities first!
I wouldn’t choose to buy a coin and become homeless, but I’d certainly consider selling my house and renting something, if that’s what it takes to buy the right coin. Like you say, it’s all about priorities.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I wouldn’t choose to buy a coin and become homeless, but I’d certainly consider selling my house and renting something, if that’s what it takes to buy the right coin. Like you say, it’s all about priorities.
You're not married, are you??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
I think the number of collectors that participate in online coin discussion is a larger number than you might think. If you include PCGS forums, NGC forums, CoinTalk, CoinCommunity, Reddit, and other smaller venues, I think you’re looking at a large number of people who fit this definition of serious collector. Consider a reasonable percentage of them are only into mint products, moderns, world coins, ancient coins, tokens, medals, and exonumia which, unlike classic American coins, rarely hit the five figure number.
Also, consider the local coin show still features a large amount of raw coins, and brings a draw of people with paper coin want lists, typically lower value pieces.
Looking at this wide swath of people, I think the <5% estimate for ownership of higher value material is a fairly accurate estimate.
When you look at subgroups though, for example people who travel out of town for coin shows, or who collect only or mostly slabbed American material, the numbers become much more skewed. Now the percentage of these collectors who have high value material is probably greater, and 20-30% is not an unreasonable estimate, but of course the pool of collectors is much smaller than the general collecting public.
There are very few that I would shell out that kind of money on...the MCMVII High Relief Saint would be an exception...but even an AU example is safely out of my reach.
oih82w8 = Oh I Hate To Wait _defectus patientia_aka...Dr. Defecto - Curator of RMO's
@Walkerfan said:
I don’t really agree with financing, either. Maybe for a couple months but that’s about it. You can’t neglect your savings, your housing, your entertainment, your travel or any of your other necessities. If you can’t afford those, then you have no business buying five or six figure coins....Priorities first!
I wouldn’t choose to buy a coin and become homeless, but I’d certainly consider selling my house and renting something, if that’s what it takes to buy the right coin. Like you say, it’s all about priorities.
That's interesting and that is some real dedication. I've financed for a few months (about 6 max) and have tightened my belt a few times, but selling my house and renting, in order to buy a coin?? I would never even consider it.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
Try finding a five figure coin at a 35-50 dealer monthly show in this country. It isn’t realistic. $2000-3000 is usually the max. Generally what I see is bullion, slabbed and raw coins from $1 to the upper three figures and the world famous 1/2 off bin that contains coins for beginners.
@FSF said:
In reviewing the Heritage auction archives for 2018, it appears that maybe not even 3% of their closed auctions were sold for 5 figures. I didn't do an actual count but it was so nominal that whether it was 3% or 4% or 2%, it was a pretty small percentage. And I think most people would agree that virtually all of Heritage lots, even for all the "widgets" that run through the place, are what "serious" collectors buy. Unless, once again, only Legend type clients are presumably serious collectors.
None of this should be a surprise to anyone, including Legend. Because the total population of 5 figure coins is just not that high, even if it is in the 5 figures, no pun intend, when considering the millions upon millions of coins that PCGS & NGC have graded, even excluding all the bullion and actual collector coins below $100 or even several hundred dollar items.
First, most collectors have hundreds or thousands of coins. Which means that for most of us, one five figure coin would be less than 1% of the coins in our collection.
Second, there are probably about 70 million PCGS and NGC coins in existence. Even if only half of 1% of them are five figure coins, that’s 350,000 five figure coins.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's fascinating to get a glimpse about how different people view the world. I agree that there is more money out there than people realize, but I don't think dealers on the national show circuit have an intuitive sense of the base of the coin collector pyramid. Nothing against them. That's just not what they see from day to day.
Maybe 1 in 10 collectors has ever been to a big show. Maybe 1 in 5 has ever owned a coin worthy of slabbing. I SERIOUSLY doubt that 30% of collectors own at least one 5-figure coin. I know nobody in my local club ever has. I can totally believe that 30% of the collectors that come into contact with Legend own at least one.
@MrEureka said:
I wouldn’t choose to buy a coin and become homeless, but I’d certainly consider selling my house and renting something, if >that’s what it takes to buy the right coin. Like you say, it’s all about priorities.
There is another way...
You can get a fixer-upper & have your coin also
@specialist said:
Again, I can think of 5 dealers off the top of my head who sell 5 figure coins weekly. Also, just look at Heritage or Stacks big sales (about 6 total), they sell many millions of five figure coins at a time. count up all the five figure + coins in FUN. They probably will all sell.
Its not just what I built.
As far as financing, I assure you, MANY people do it. MANY. And MANY firms cater to people who need terms too.
My guess is 35% of the market buyers coins of five figures. Now six figures is more like 10% and million dollar coins 5%.
Laura - What's your best guess as to how many collectors have actually bought a coin for $1 million or more? I would guess somewhere between 30 and 50. And FWIW, my best guess is that there are 30-50,000 serious collectors of US coins, as least as defined by the OP. Which means that maybe one in 1000 "serious collectors" have ever bought a million dollar coin. (If you include the less-than-serious collectors, it's probably more like one in 50,000!)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think it's easy to think there may be a lot because there are hundreds of permutations of different coins, when mixing denomination / date / mintmark, that have an example or more of a five figure coin. The problem is that the number of examples are very very small in almost all of those cases. The glaring exception being the oft mentioned HR 1907 $20.
Yes, there are thousands of five figure High Reliefs. And maybe 2000+ slugs, and many thousands of proof gold pieces, and hundreds of 1895 Dollars, and many hundreds of 1893-S Dollars, and on and on and on.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This thread got me thinking of my FE/IHC collection that I sold around 2005-06. In going through my photos, I had 24
5-figure coins in that collection, excluding small cent patterns. The one's that got my attention at the time were the upper-5-figure coins.
Have sold most everything since then and have very few real coins now, maybe 2-3.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
There at least 125 coins in the FUN sale that are OVER $10,000.00. There is one that is over $1 million. So much more happens people do not know about. Saturday I bought 2 figure coins, they are now sold. I am telling you, more five figure deals happen more often than you think.
Its not me talking about my personal market. Again, I know multiple people who do far more biz then me-and they buy five and six figure coins regularly.
There is noting wrong with a collector who does not spend five figures. The market is made up of many facets.
Right now you could be #7 on a saint date set registry (PCGS) without ever having spent 5 figures on 18 coins necesssary. (23 for a complete set)
Not including 1921, 1929, 1930, 1931 & 1932 which you have to have one or more of to climb higher than #7
(you would be #1 on NGC date sets)
That means about 94 out of 100 people who collect saints, and are registered, don't own a 5 figure coin.
If you check the pop/price reports you'll find that you'll have a pop 100 coin before spending 5 figures. (on those 18)
This leads me to believe there are about 100 serious saint collectors in the world.
Serious to me means crossing the 50% completion level.
Million plus 5 figure coins? I guess these aren't very rare either. I need to get the heck out of this game before the five figure coins go the way of stamps too.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
@FSF said:
In reviewing the Heritage auction archives for 2018, it appears that maybe not even 3% of their closed auctions were sold for 5 figures. I didn't do an actual count but it was so nominal that whether it was 3% or 4% or 2%, it was a pretty small percentage. And I think most people would agree that virtually all of Heritage lots, even for all the "widgets" that run through the place, are what "serious" collectors buy. Unless, once again, only Legend type clients are presumably serious collectors.
None of this should be a surprise to anyone, including Legend. Because the total population of 5 figure coins is just not that high, even if it is in the 5 figures, no pun intend, when considering the millions upon millions of coins that PCGS & NGC have graded, even excluding all the bullion and actual collector coins below $100 or even several hundred dollar items.
You state "even if [the number of 5 figure coins] is in the five figures..." If you go to collectors.com and filter for coins $10,000 or more--you get over 12,000 hits. Yes, there are some duplicate listings but there are far more coins that are not part of collectors.com to offset that. Further, i would suspect most five figure coins are not even for sale but sit in collections. In other words, I do not think there is any doubt that there are more than 10,000 coins in the five figure category.
Honestly, I think that stat is a bit of a red herring anyway as to the question how many collectors own or have owned at least one five figure coin. Based upon my own experiences (five figure coins have been the most liquid coins for me) and what I have read on this thread, there is a healthy number of collectors who will pay five figures for the right coin.
@MrEureka said:
I wouldn’t choose to buy a coin and become homeless, but I’d certainly consider selling my house and renting something, if >that’s what it takes to buy the right coin. Like you say, it’s all about priorities.
There is another way...
You can get a fixer-upper & have your coin also
Yeah, but I’ve already done that. Now I’m talking about selling the fixer-upper.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@specialist said:
OMG, never listen to me count.. Andy is right. It is more like 500 coins that are five figures in FUN!! OMG I have to sit until the very end too.
I personally think people are drinking a little too much kool-aid if they think more than 1% of collectors will ever own a 5-figure coin in their lifetime. My guess is that most 5-figure coin sales are to people that already own 5-figure coins and so saying that X% of all sales are 5-figure coins and using that as an estimation of the population that owns 5-figure coins just doesn't work. Furthurmore, only a tiny fraction of the coin buying population even uses HA, Stacks, Legend, etc.
I bet it's some tiny tiny fraction much less than 1% of coin collectors/"serious" coin collectors who actually own a 5-figure coin. Where now "serious" is up to interpretation too.
Even using OP's definition of serious doesn't really work because it's up to interpretation. The set of people that go to coin shows and visit the coin boards are probably very different in size and shape with some overlap. I bet many people that own 5 figure coins don't even visit these forums, so how do they factor in. That would be a large effect.
@Colonialcoin said:
Try finding a five figure coin at a 35-50 dealer monthly show in this country. It isn’t realistic. $2000-3000 is usually the max. Generally what I see is bullion, slabbed and raw coins from $1 to the upper three figures and the world famous 1/2 off bin that contains coins for beginners.
Most dealers if they have 5 figure coins will not bring them to a small monthly show. There’s little to no interest in them and security is a concern.
most the posts trying to determine how many collectors own or have owned one or more five figure coins are looking at coins currently for sale----the large majority of these coins I would assume are not for sale.
Comments
I wouldn’t choose to buy a coin and become homeless, but I’d certainly consider selling my house and renting something, if that’s what it takes to buy the right coin. Like you say, it’s all about priorities.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Yes, paid $238 and have been offered $20,000 for it.
Have just one other 5 figure coin, but paid $6600 for it.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I wouldn’t choose to buy a coin and become homeless, but I’d certainly consider selling my house and renting something, if that’s what it takes to buy the right coin. Like you say, it’s all about priorities.
You're not married, are you??
I think the number of collectors that participate in online coin discussion is a larger number than you might think. If you include PCGS forums, NGC forums, CoinTalk, CoinCommunity, Reddit, and other smaller venues, I think you’re looking at a large number of people who fit this definition of serious collector. Consider a reasonable percentage of them are only into mint products, moderns, world coins, ancient coins, tokens, medals, and exonumia which, unlike classic American coins, rarely hit the five figure number.
Also, consider the local coin show still features a large amount of raw coins, and brings a draw of people with paper coin want lists, typically lower value pieces.
Looking at this wide swath of people, I think the <5% estimate for ownership of higher value material is a fairly accurate estimate.
When you look at subgroups though, for example people who travel out of town for coin shows, or who collect only or mostly slabbed American material, the numbers become much more skewed. Now the percentage of these collectors who have high value material is probably greater, and 20-30% is not an unreasonable estimate, but of course the pool of collectors is much smaller than the general collecting public.
There are very few that I would shell out that kind of money on...the MCMVII High Relief Saint would be an exception...but even an AU example is safely out of my reach.
BST transactions: dbldie55, jayPem, 78saen, UltraHighRelief, nibanny, liefgold, FallGuy, lkeigwin, mbogoman, Sandman70gt, keets, joeykoins, ianrussell (@GC), EagleEye, ThePennyLady, GRANDAM, Ilikecolor, Gluggo, okiedude, Voyageur, LJenkins11, fastfreddie, ms70, pursuitofliberty, ZoidMeister,Coin Finder, GotTheBug, edwardjulio, Coinnmore, Nickpatton, Namvet69,...
That's interesting and that is some real dedication. I've financed for a few months (about 6 max) and have tightened my belt a few times, but selling my house and renting, in order to buy a coin?? I would never even consider it.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
Try finding a five figure coin at a 35-50 dealer monthly show in this country. It isn’t realistic. $2000-3000 is usually the max. Generally what I see is bullion, slabbed and raw coins from $1 to the upper three figures and the world famous 1/2 off bin that contains coins for beginners.
The only figure I care about is MINE
First, most collectors have hundreds or thousands of coins. Which means that for most of us, one five figure coin would be less than 1% of the coins in our collection.
Second, there are probably about 70 million PCGS and NGC coins in existence. Even if only half of 1% of them are five figure coins, that’s 350,000 five figure coins.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It's fascinating to get a glimpse about how different people view the world. I agree that there is more money out there than people realize, but I don't think dealers on the national show circuit have an intuitive sense of the base of the coin collector pyramid. Nothing against them. That's just not what they see from day to day.
Maybe 1 in 10 collectors has ever been to a big show. Maybe 1 in 5 has ever owned a coin worthy of slabbing. I SERIOUSLY doubt that 30% of collectors own at least one 5-figure coin. I know nobody in my local club ever has. I can totally believe that 30% of the collectors that come into contact with Legend own at least one.
There is another way...
You can get a fixer-upper & have your coin also
My Saint Set
Laura - What's your best guess as to how many collectors have actually bought a coin for $1 million or more? I would guess somewhere between 30 and 50. And FWIW, my best guess is that there are 30-50,000 serious collectors of US coins, as least as defined by the OP. Which means that maybe one in 1000 "serious collectors" have ever bought a million dollar coin. (If you include the less-than-serious collectors, it's probably more like one in 50,000!)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The security, coin preservation issues with 5 figure coins not my cup of tea.
Yes, there are thousands of five figure High Reliefs. And maybe 2000+ slugs, and many thousands of proof gold pieces, and hundreds of 1895 Dollars, and many hundreds of 1893-S Dollars, and on and on and on.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
This thread got me thinking of my FE/IHC collection that I sold around 2005-06. In going through my photos, I had 24
5-figure coins in that collection, excluding small cent patterns. The one's that got my attention at the time were the upper-5-figure coins.
Have sold most everything since then and have very few real coins now, maybe 2-3.
There at least 125 coins in the FUN sale that are OVER $10,000.00. There is one that is over $1 million. So much more happens people do not know about. Saturday I bought 2 figure coins, they are now sold. I am telling you, more five figure deals happen more often than you think.
Its not me talking about my personal market. Again, I know multiple people who do far more biz then me-and they buy five and six figure coins regularly.
There is noting wrong with a collector who does not spend five figures. The market is made up of many facets.
Right now you could be #7 on a saint date set registry (PCGS) without ever having spent 5 figures on 18 coins necesssary. (23 for a complete set)
Not including 1921, 1929, 1930, 1931 & 1932 which you have to have one or more of to climb higher than #7
(you would be #1 on NGC date sets)
That means about 94 out of 100 people who collect saints, and are registered, don't own a 5 figure coin.
If you check the pop/price reports you'll find that you'll have a pop 100 coin before spending 5 figures. (on those 18)
This leads me to believe there are about 100 serious saint collectors in the world.
Serious to me means crossing the 50% completion level.
That ain't many
My Saint Set
Million plus 5 figure coins? I guess these aren't very rare either. I need to get the heck out of this game before the five figure coins go the way of stamps too.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
You state "even if [the number of 5 figure coins] is in the five figures..." If you go to collectors.com and filter for coins $10,000 or more--you get over 12,000 hits. Yes, there are some duplicate listings but there are far more coins that are not part of collectors.com to offset that. Further, i would suspect most five figure coins are not even for sale but sit in collections. In other words, I do not think there is any doubt that there are more than 10,000 coins in the five figure category.
Honestly, I think that stat is a bit of a red herring anyway as to the question how many collectors own or have owned at least one five figure coin. Based upon my own experiences (five figure coins have been the most liquid coins for me) and what I have read on this thread, there is a healthy number of collectors who will pay five figures for the right coin.
Yeah, but I’ve already done that. Now I’m talking about selling the fixer-upper.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
125 is a ridiculously low estimate. How did you come up with a silly number like that???
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
OMG, never listen to me count.. Andy is right. It is more like 500 coins that are five figures in FUN!! OMG I have to sit until the very end too.
Me bad, can't count
But your spelling's improved dramatically.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
I personally think people are drinking a little too much kool-aid if they think more than 1% of collectors will ever own a 5-figure coin in their lifetime. My guess is that most 5-figure coin sales are to people that already own 5-figure coins and so saying that X% of all sales are 5-figure coins and using that as an estimation of the population that owns 5-figure coins just doesn't work. Furthurmore, only a tiny fraction of the coin buying population even uses HA, Stacks, Legend, etc.
I bet it's some tiny tiny fraction much less than 1% of coin collectors/"serious" coin collectors who actually own a 5-figure coin. Where now "serious" is up to interpretation too.
Even using OP's definition of serious doesn't really work because it's up to interpretation. The set of people that go to coin shows and visit the coin boards are probably very different in size and shape with some overlap. I bet many people that own 5 figure coins don't even visit these forums, so how do they factor in. That would be a large effect.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
She is writing off the "expensive dreck" and five figure widgets.
Most dealers if they have 5 figure coins will not bring them to a small monthly show. There’s little to no interest in them and security is a concern.
most the posts trying to determine how many collectors own or have owned one or more five figure coins are looking at coins currently for sale----the large majority of these coins I would assume are not for sale.