Send it in, but I do believe
the leg was' buffed' off the Buff,
based on the photos.
In a few of the closeups, the missing
leg area looks disturbed.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
In a few of the closeups, the missing
leg area looks disturbed.
I think I also see what you are seeing. I assumed that was the faintest remnant of the leg that was polished off the die. I hope he sends it in so you can get a first hand look.
I wonder if the TPGs ever offer a free review or slabbing of a potential major discovery.
I seem to recall that on occasion they have offered something like this (and even a cash reward) for things like the first reported edged-lettered Sac $ (before they had edge lettering),etc.
A modern 3 legger would seem to be a big find that would generate lots of interest and of course if you found one it would have to be slabbed due to the chance of fakes. So, if PCGS could confirm the discovery piece hat would create a mini gold rush of sorts (hint, hint ).
JBK - that area that we both see is not die polishing, imo.
It looks like the remnant area of the coin itself being
buffed off.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
There is a possibility that the die packed with grease where the leg should be, but if so it would be an error rather than a collectible die variety. The possibility that the leg was ground off remains strong.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
What you have going for you IMO- is the previous year at the Denver mint saw some interesting artifacts show up on coins...most notable the High/Low leaf on reverse of Wisconsin quarter, and curved image on obverse of dime that may, or, may not be doubled die of ear...who knows; maybe a missing leg is the piece to solve whether or not a rouge employee was culprit. If the case; would be an awesome conclusion to a numismatic mystery.
I am a little confused by the posted pictures, multiple shots of same coin, etc. How about posting a nice closeup of each of the 2 buffaloes side by side with the same lighting. I suspect the two coins are not from the same die. If not from the same die, then I would say altered. There do seem to be some differences in the photos, but I don't know if it is the same coin, different light and angle.. or two different coins.
@PocketArt said:
What you have going for you IMO- is the previous year at the Denver mint saw some interesting artifacts show up on coins...most notable the High/Low leaf on reverse of Wisconsin quarter, and curved image on obverse of dime that may, or, may not be doubled die of ear...who knows; maybe a missing leg is the piece to solve whether or not a rouge employee was culprit. If the case; would be an awesome conclusion to a numismatic mystery.
You make a real good point with the time frame. Strange, though, how those "extra leaves" and now the missing leg are showing up in places so close to design elements.
I mean, yea.......I agree that the area does not look abraided or tooled.
I guess what I'm saying is that anything could happen.
Get it authenticated.
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
@tincup said:
I am a little confused by the posted pictures, multiple shots of same coin, etc. How about posting a nice closeup of each of the 2 buffaloes side by side with the same lighting. I suspect the two coins are not from the same die. If not from the same die, then I would say altered. There do seem to be some differences in the photos, but I don't know if it is the same coin, different light and angle.. or two different coins.
Sorry about any confusion with the photos. All of the close-ups are of the same coin, just different lighting and angles. The few photos with both coins are just that, they were sitting side by side when I took the photo. I think you are asking for a much closer photo with both coins? I can dig them out and try to get better photos if needed.
Thanks for looking & taking the time to post a comment.
I have been trying to get a close-up of both coins together but it seems my camera wants to focus on one or the other coin. One is clear the other is out of focus and a slightly different color. I wanted to have both together in the same photo but to get close-ups I may need to photo & post each coin. I will keep trying a few different things.
That is called a speared Bison and it is an error coin and worth about 100 maybe more if it gets graded high. Great find. Only 5,700 of these know to have been release nice find
I went through all my rolls of these last fall when the OP first posted. Nada -- but I'm a believer!
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Scary thought that it was the nefarious action of a Mint employee. Imagine if you will that said employee was one with enough numismatic knowledge to subtlety alter dies in ways that would guarantee a situation such as OP has presented us with.
@ifthevamzarockin said:
I have been trying to get a close-up of both coins together but it seems my camera wants to focus on one or the other coin. One is clear the other is out of focus and a slightly different color. I wanted to have both together in the same photo but to get close-ups I may need to photo & post each coin. I will keep trying a few different things.
Individual closeup photos would work... as long as same angle and lighting so apples can be compared to apples, etc. (so die markers, die abrasions, etc. can be seen) If both are the same die... that would certainly make it more likely they are the real deal. The above mentioned theory of a mint employee having some fun would certainly be a plausibility. They just don't seem to be an abraded die in the classical sense to repair damage, etc... seems to be more intentionally done rather than necessity. Neat looking coins regardless.
If you aren't going to send them to PCGS then send them to me. If I like how they look in hand then I will send them in. If they come back as legit then I will give you a smiley face emoticon in appreciation.
@JBK said:
If you aren't going to send them to PCGS then send them to me. If I like how they look in hand then I will send them in. If they come back as legit then I will give you a smiley face emoticon in appreciation.
A smiley face.... Wow! That is mighty nice of you! I take back all the bad things I have been saying about you.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 50+ Year PNG Member.A full-time numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022.
Good... let's see the reveal. I've been suspecting we were being led on. Otherwise those coins would be in the hands of individuals who could prove or disprove without having to rely on photos.
@tincup said:
Good... let's see the reveal. I've been suspecting we were being led on. Otherwise those coins would be in the hands of individuals who could prove or disprove without having to rely on photos.
I have a strange feeling about this.......................
Pete
"I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
Thanks to everyone for your comments & participation!
This was intended to be a learning thread and not just another troll.
These 2 coins are ** Altered ** They are a very good alteration that would deceive most people. There is nothing you can see with a 10x loupe, it requires 30x or better. The coins seem to have been picked for the very slightly eroded dies, that way they could match the surface texture after the leg was removed. The folks who guessed about being the same dies were on the right track, they are 2 different dies. They are good enough that 1 was used to teach a alteration class with. Don't feel bad if you were fooled by them, several experts have offered to buy them. I thought this would be a good chance to show what can be done and that not all alterations are easy to spot. It will never be known the intention of doing these, not sure if they were meant to be sold, a practice run, something to be lightly circulated then graded etc. There may be more out there, it is unknown how many were done.
Removed mint marks, removed arrows or other features can be very difficult to spot!
This post was meant as a learning post and not just another troll post.
It seems the coins were picked for their slightly eroded dies. That way they could match the texture of the fields after the leg was removed. The folks who mentioned about the same dies, you were on the right track, they are 2 different dies. Nothing shows on these coins with a 10x loupe, you need 30x or better to see what is going on. If you were fooled by these don't feel bad this is a high quality alteration. In fact 1 of the coins was used to teach a class on alterations. This post was meant to show that not all alterations are easy to spot. Thing such as removed mint marks and removed arrows are not always easy to tell.
Comments
If it came out of the mint like that there should be more of them.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
More mint employee shenanigans?
Would be a heck of a discovery.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
No photoshop or lighting tricks of any kind. Photos are right off my camera.
You're accusing the OP of doctoring his photos? That seems rude. He has the actual coins.
Honestly, I would send one in. It looks to me like it could be real.
Send it in, but I do believe
the leg was' buffed' off the Buff,
based on the photos.
In a few of the closeups, the missing
leg area looks disturbed.
No problem, all comments are welcome!
Quite honestly I would be thinking the same kind of things.
Thanks for taking the time to look, your insight is always appreciated.
I think I also see what you are seeing. I assumed that was the faintest remnant of the leg that was polished off the die. I hope he sends it in so you can get a first hand look.
Still can't edit my posts.....
I wonder if the TPGs ever offer a free review or slabbing of a potential major discovery.
I seem to recall that on occasion they have offered something like this (and even a cash reward) for things like the first reported edged-lettered Sac $ (before they had edge lettering),etc.
A modern 3 legger would seem to be a big find that would generate lots of interest and of course if you found one it would have to be slabbed due to the chance of fakes. So, if PCGS could confirm the discovery piece hat would create a mini gold rush of sorts (hint, hint
).
I would have sent it before posting... lol
Now you have a 100 guys raiding banks and cracking rolls as we speak.
Praying it is legit. Moderns can be fun too
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
I was wondering why every bank I drove by this morning had a line out the door.
JBK - that area that we both see is not die polishing, imo.
It looks like the remnant area of the coin itself being
buffed off.
There is a possibility that the die packed with grease where the leg should be, but if so it would be an error rather than a collectible die variety. The possibility that the leg was ground off remains strong.
@JBK "A modern 3 legger would seem to be a big find that would generate lots of interest"
Well you would think so.
Looks like we have about 4 votes for error & 5 for alteration and about 3 or 4 on the fence.
Error or Alteration.... cast your vote if you haven't already.
What you have going for you IMO- is the previous year at the Denver mint saw some interesting artifacts show up on coins...most notable the High/Low leaf on reverse of Wisconsin quarter, and curved image on obverse of dime that may, or, may not be doubled die of ear...who knows; maybe a missing leg is the piece to solve whether or not a rouge employee was culprit. If the case; would be an awesome conclusion to a numismatic mystery.
I see an error not an alteration....what do I know, 'eh?
bob
I am a little confused by the posted pictures, multiple shots of same coin, etc. How about posting a nice closeup of each of the 2 buffaloes side by side with the same lighting. I suspect the two coins are not from the same die. If not from the same die, then I would say altered. There do seem to be some differences in the photos, but I don't know if it is the same coin, different light and angle.. or two different coins.
You make a real good point with the time frame. Strange, though, how those "extra leaves" and now the missing leg are showing up in places so close to design elements.
I mean, yea.......I agree that the area does not look abraided or tooled.
I guess what I'm saying is that anything could happen.
Get it authenticated.
Pete
And I agree with the above mention that it appears to be 'altered' and not die polishing.
Sorry about any confusion with the photos. All of the close-ups are of the same coin, just different lighting and angles. The few photos with both coins are just that, they were sitting side by side when I took the photo. I think you are asking for a much closer photo with both coins? I can dig them out and try to get better photos if needed.
Thanks for looking & taking the time to post a comment.
Am I the first to say I WANT one, no matter how it was made?
http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistry/publishedset.aspx?s=142753
https://www.autismforums.com/media/albums/acrylic-colors-by-rocco.291/
Look side by side. Here is pics to review
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
I have been trying to get a close-up of both coins together but it seems my camera wants to focus on one or the other coin. One is clear the other is out of focus and a slightly different color. I wanted to have both together in the same photo but to get close-ups I may need to photo & post each coin. I will keep trying a few different things.
That is called a speared Bison and it is an error coin and worth about 100 maybe more if it gets graded high. Great find. Only 5,700 of these know to have been release nice find
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Speared Bison
Coin Facts:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/2005-d-5c-speared-bison/84159
I went through all my rolls of these last fall when the OP first posted. Nada -- but I'm a believer!
Scary thought that it was the nefarious action of a Mint employee. Imagine if you will that said employee was one with enough numismatic knowledge to subtlety alter dies in ways that would guarantee a situation such as OP has presented us with.
Individual closeup photos would work... as long as same angle and lighting so apples can be compared to apples, etc. (so die markers, die abrasions, etc. can be seen) If both are the same die... that would certainly make it more likely they are the real deal. The above mentioned theory of a mint employee having some fun would certainly be a plausibility. They just don't seem to be an abraded die in the classical sense to repair damage, etc... seems to be more intentionally done rather than necessity. Neat looking coins regardless.
I feel it's been altered.
Please take a photo of the area around the missing leg with the coin tipped up a few degrees. Use FLORESCENT light!
Why aren't they already on their way? Photos are good, now if the coins are, you truly have something. Be first, don't screw around.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Thanks for all the kind & informative responses!
The guesses seem to be slowing down. Are you ready for the reveal or are there some that want more photos?
If you aren't going to send them to PCGS then send them to me. If I like how they look in hand then I will send them in. If they come back as legit then I will give you a smiley face emoticon in appreciation.
A smiley face.... Wow! That is mighty nice of you! I take back all the bad things I have been saying about you.
Maybe I already sent them to PCGS?!?!?
I agree. What could a mint employee do to a die to make this? fill the one section of leg full of superglue?
I am not following how the speared bison got into this thread
Let's see the reveal
It's another part of the strange things that were going on at the Denver Mint at that time. AKA Wisconsin Quarter and the OP coin.
I forgot the Speared Bison should be included.
Pete
Ditto
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
Good... let's see the reveal. I've been suspecting we were being led on. Otherwise those coins would be in the hands of individuals who could prove or disprove without having to rely on photos.
I have a strange feeling about this.......................
Pete
>
I think the point is that the three legged buffalo was next in line to get speared since he could not move as fast as the others....
The current Mint Director implied that there might be a circulation rarity intentionally produced. Something like this would be fun.
Thanks to everyone for your comments & participation!
This was intended to be a learning thread and not just another troll.
These 2 coins are ** Altered ** They are a very good alteration that would deceive most people. There is nothing you can see with a 10x loupe, it requires 30x or better. The coins seem to have been picked for the very slightly eroded dies, that way they could match the surface texture after the leg was removed. The folks who guessed about being the same dies were on the right track, they are 2 different dies. They are good enough that 1 was used to teach a alteration class with. Don't feel bad if you were fooled by them, several experts have offered to buy them. I thought this would be a good chance to show what can be done and that not all alterations are easy to spot. It will never be known the intention of doing these, not sure if they were meant to be sold, a practice run, something to be lightly circulated then graded etc. There may be more out there, it is unknown how many were done.
Removed mint marks, removed arrows or other features can be very difficult to spot!
I'm very sorry, I feel bad that you looked through all your rolls. I'm sure you are not the only one.
what happened to my post??
@HeatherBoyd
Can you fix my lost post? It would be the post right before the 1:16pm post.
Thanks to everyone for your kind comments & participation.
These 2 coins are Altered
Will post better explanation if my prior post can not be revived.
This post was meant as a learning post and not just another troll post.
It seems the coins were picked for their slightly eroded dies. That way they could match the texture of the fields after the leg was removed. The folks who mentioned about the same dies, you were on the right track, they are 2 different dies. Nothing shows on these coins with a 10x loupe, you need 30x or better to see what is going on. If you were fooled by these don't feel bad this is a high quality alteration. In fact 1 of the coins was used to teach a class on alterations. This post was meant to show that not all alterations are easy to spot. Thing such as removed mint marks and removed arrows are not always easy to tell.
I wish we had an "angry" emoji...
Those don't really convey it.
@FredWeinberg and a few others were correct.