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Warning, decades old type of artificial toning!

Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

A long time ago, commemorative coins started to appear in the market with is type of blocky toning. It is fairly attractive. It took a while before the TPGS's decided it was actually AT. I suspect folks finally became suspicious when too many started to pop up on most of the different designs. I have not seen one of these in years.

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Comments

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do you have an image of the whole coin ?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018 10:39AM

    The color comes out nicer with incandescent light. Some had tinges of pastel blue, pink and green, mixed with the light brown.

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭

    :)

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Crackled toners - I'm sure there are probably old threads on it.

  • AkbeezAkbeez Posts: 2,689 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's hard to really understand the "look" without seeing the whole coin. How was the AT accomplished?

    Refs: MCM,Fivecents,Julio,Robman,Endzone,Coiny,Agentjim007,Musky1011,holeinone1972,Tdec1000,Type2,bumanchu, Metalsman,Wondercoin,Pitboss,Tomohawk,carew4me,segoja,thebigeng,jlc_coin,mbogoman,sportsmod,dragon,tychojoe,Schmitz7,claychaser,and many OTHERS
  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Akbeez said:
    It's hard to really understand the "look" without seeing the whole coin. How was the AT accomplished?

    Wish I knew but the "doctors" have gone way past this type of AT.

    Sorry, I'll never understand this need in a million years. no slight on you but there is enough present in the image to know what to look for w/o seeing the reverse, edge, or entire coin.

    I have worked with a fellow who has no imagination and cannot see and discuss something in the abstract. He cannot comment on anything without seeing a specific coin. For example: There is a difference between a weak strike and a flat strike. I can see multiple examples of each w/o needing a coin. He cannot. Makes it hard to discuss any facets of coin grading with him. :( It's very frustrating.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    There is a difference between a weak strike and a flat strike.

    I thought they were the same thing. What's the difference?

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @Insider2 said:

    There is a difference between a weak strike and a flat strike.

    I thought they were the same thing. What's the difference?

    Degree.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With the colors I see in the pic under incandescent lighting then the coin must have some wild colors under daylight. :o

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @PerryHall said:

    @Insider2 said:

    There is a difference between a weak strike and a flat strike.

    I thought they were the same thing. What's the difference?

    Degree.

    Is the flat strike the one with the lesser detail? I've always heard both terms used interchangeably.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This will have to do for now as it's taking too long to find a better example of a "flat strike."

  • thefinnthefinn Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @Akbeez said:
    It's hard to really understand the "look" without seeing the whole coin. How was the AT accomplished?

    Wish I knew but the "doctors" have gone way past this type of AT.

    Sorry, I'll never understand this need in a million years. no slight on you but there is enough present in the image to know what to look for w/o seeing the reverse, edge, or entire coin.

    I have worked with a fellow who has no imagination and cannot see and discuss something in the abstract. He cannot comment on anything without seeing a specific coin. For example: There is a difference between a weak strike and a flat strike. I can see multiple examples of each w/o needing a coin. He cannot. Makes it hard to discuss any facets of coin grading with him. :( It's very frustrating.

    Isn't this the same type of toning you see on mid-50's Roosies, Washington quarters and Franklin halves? Usually that seems to be a dark blue and violet.

    thefinn
  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭✭✭

    SEGS graded the heck out of these when the other services caught on. Soon after even SEGS gave it up.
    I still see commemorative halves with this toning and honestly, some looking pretty dang nice.

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have seen a number of '21 Morgans with this type of crackled toning. Someone here on the forums suggested it was from the minting process. Haven't seen the "crackled toning" on other Morgan dates. Just the 21 and 21-D.

    Isn't this the same type of toning you see on mid-50's Roosies, Washington quarters and Franklin halves? Usually that seems to be a dark blue and violet.

    Like this 62 Roosie?

  • gripgrip Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Another term was egg shell.

  • HallcoHallco Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I have seen this type of toning on some Stone Mountain, Bay Bridge and Pilgrim Commems. Some look really neat, some look awful.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sorry but count me in on the “I’d like to see a whole example” side. I’m trying to learn the difference between “original” and “not-original” so seeing a good example would be helpful.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    'Crackled' was the common term... always reminded me of a dried up pond surface....as if something was applied, dried and separated.... Cheers, RickO

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018 9:31AM

    When were these determined to be AT?

    Were there major dealers for these?

    Are any of the doctors known?

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Walker I posted was straight graded by PCGS but determined to be AT by CAC. It exhibits crackle style toning IMHO.

  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks similar to some double mint set toning I have seen...
    photo IMG_3556.jpg

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Meltdown said:
    Looks similar to some double mint set toning I have seen...
    photo IMG_3556.jpg

    Not really. The Franklin has normal mint set toning.

  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yep. Normal mint set toning that;s kind of "crackled"

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭

    There were many W/C and BTW's and Texas... some were quite pretty.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Hemispherical said:
    With the colors I see in the pic under incandescent lighting then the coin must have some wild colors under daylight. :o

    This is taken with florescent light. I should have taken one with incandescent light but the coin is gone.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @chesterb said:
    Sorry but count me in on the “I’d like to see a whole example” side. I’m trying to learn the difference between “original” and “not-original” so seeing a good example would be helpful.

    My setup does not allow full images. Since I don't need them for my use except in the case of my columns, I very rarely send a coin to our photo dept. for an image.

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭

    Too bad the old Teletrade archives are gone, a ton of them were sold there.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does anyone know who popularized this technique?

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Baley said:

    @Insider2 said:

    @Akbeez said:
    It's hard to really understand the "look" without seeing the whole coin. How was the AT accomplished?

    Wish I knew but the "doctors" have gone way past this type of AT.

    Sorry, I'll never understand this need in a million years. no slight on you but there is enough present in the image to know what to look for w/o seeing the reverse, edge, or entire coin.

    Well, we'll never understand your not understanding the desire to see pictures of the whole coin, with proper white balance.

    Dear Baley,

    I work at a level of examination far beyond 98% of most numismatists. Knowing what the surfaces of genuine coins (Ancient to Modern) look like has helped me to avoid the costly embarrassments to my pride and the company wallet of slabbing a counterfeit EXCEPT IN FEW cases over the years. :(

    The images I post here are to show specific characteristics I see on coins. If I ever do a GTG I'll post an entire coin. :)

    I'll see if I can work on the white balance. I agree that if I'm posting an image, it should be the best possible.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @cameonut2011 said:
    The Walker I posted was straight graded by PCGS but determined to be AT by CAC. It exhibits crackle style toning IMHO.

    No big deal. I believe these coins fooled everyone when they first appeared. It was probably one of the top two TPGS that eventually detected them. That's a pretty half dollar.

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭

    The majority that I have seen were NGC fattys, but yes they fooled everyone in the beginning.

  • robecrobec Posts: 6,581 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This Franklin is in a Gen 4 NGC slab. I bought from R&I in the early 90's. I find it hard to believe coin doctors were trying to achieve this look back them. Blast white was king in those days.


  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @robec said:
    This Franklin is in a Gen 4 NGC slab. I bought from R&I in the early 90's. I find it hard to believe coin doctors were trying to achieve this look back them. Blast white was king in those days.


    Beautiful coin, but that's the look! I always thought these toners started appearing in the mid 1990's. I was working in TN at the time and we did not receive many "gem" commemoratives or toners at the TPGS. Back then, hundreds of beautiful rainbow Morgan's were dipped "white" for TV. :(

  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,650 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That reminds me... I have this Franklin in an old NGC soap slab as well.
    photo IMG_3594.jpg
    photo IMG_3595.jpg

  • Wahoo554Wahoo554 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So is the consensus that natural toning cannot take on the crackled appearance shown on these examples? Anybody have an example of this type of toning on gold (I’m in the camp that can’t really tell what I’m looking at in the OP)? Any thoughts on whether the crackled appearance is the result of AT degrading over time, or whether that’s the original end result of the AT process?

  • georgiacop50georgiacop50 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2018 1:14PM

    Meltdown yours looks totally legit to me.

    And the 52 while suspect is not a sure fire "crackle" in my book. That one may or may not be. It doesn't have the reds, greens and violet that I associate. What does @coppercolor think? @skyman ?

    There were plenty of us chasing Franklin toners in the early 90's haha. Steve Leber, John Wooten, Pawpaul, @ronyahaski etc.

  • robecrobec Posts: 6,581 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Wahoo554 said:
    So is the consensus that natural toning cannot take on the crackled appearance shown on these examples? Anybody have an example of this type of toning on gold (I’m in the camp that can’t really tell what I’m looking at in the OP)? Any thoughts on whether the crackled appearance is the result of AT degrading over time, or whether that’s the original end result of the AT process?

    The 1952 Franklin I posted hasn't changed since I've had it, which is around 25 years.

  • chesterbchesterb Posts: 961 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the examples.

  • Wahoo554Wahoo554 Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’d be interested to know if there’s a technical definition for NT vs. AT. If a gold coin takes on toning from many years in a leather pouch, a bank vault or a coin cabinet I understand that to be acceptable natural toning. Similar for if a silver coin takes on toning from canvas bag or Mylar envelope. Does natural necessarily entail “slow” toning? If a mercury dime has interesting coloration because it was accidentally exposed to chemicals at an auto shop in the 30’s is it AT? Just an interesting topic.

  • ranshdowranshdow Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭✭

    I wonder if this look is the product of some sort of wetting agent rinse, either before or exposure to something with a reactive sulfur compound.... or more generally, from the chemicals designed to 'develop', 'stop', and 'fix' the silver halides in photographic film.

  • HemisphericalHemispherical Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @Hemispherical said:
    With the colors I see in the pic under incandescent lighting then the coin must have some wild colors under daylight. :o

    This is taken with florescent light. I should have taken one with incandescent light but the coin is gone.

    Ops, thats what I meant but the fingers went the other way. LOL :)

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 During this time that the TPG's first recognized this toning, were you seeing colors on the Roosie's, Washington's, Franklins, and Commems? Colors like on the 62 dime above?

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,301 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks Insider2. Educational threads like this one makes reading this forum worthwhile. B)

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • TimbobbTimbobb Posts: 302 ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018 3:01AM



    I don’t know really what happened here with this penny. Thoughts!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2018 10:36AM

    Damaged.

    Welcome to CU. In the future, you should start your own discussion so folks not interested in reading this one will see your coin and can comment. :)

  • MattTheRileyMattTheRiley Posts: 806 ✭✭✭✭

    I've got a Morgan with similar toning. I think of it as Robin Egg toning.

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