Question for pcgs

Beneteau

I recently came across a thread where some coins were apparently toned in the pcgs holder and posted here on the forums. My question is what if someone could show pcgs how it's being done, how to tone coins and get them past secure plus? Is that information pcgs would want and if so what about placing a bounty or reward for said info? Companys like google, Facebook and so on pay people to show them exploits so why not in the coin world in am attempt to clean some things up? Idk just thinking out loud

david3142

The coins were toned in the holder so they didn’t have to get past any graders.

BAJJERFAN

I expect that PCGS already knows how it's done.

ChrisH821

The new holders are air tight so it hopefully isn't a problem going forward.

Beneteau

@david3142 said:
The coins were toned in the holder so they didn’t have to get past any graders.

I agree, maybe showing them could help them stop after market toning in the holders by adding an additional holder outside the rattler?

@BAJJERFAN said:
I expect that PCGS already knows how it's done.

I'm not sure about that, they added pcgs secure plus but I am 100% sure coins get passed secure plus after being doctored .

Beneteau

@ChrisH821 said:
The new holders are air tight so it hopefully isn't a problem going forward.

I agree, I guess I'm just thinking out loud. I know allot of people pit so much time and effort into sets only to see someone tone a coin in ten minutes send it off to get graded secure plus and then have a better coin

Beneteau

Well not a better coin but higher grade, maybe better color idk

BlindedByEgo

Many of the rattler and early-gen OGH coins are susceptible to manipulation. The effects of "gassing" aren't very convincing since the fast deposition, IMHO, doesn't "look right". Little that PCGS can do - a great number of these holders have been cracked open, and other that locating these frauds made from the survivors, and entering information into the database, there's not much that can be done.

Beneteau

@BlindedByEgo said:
Many of the rattler and early-gen OGH coins are susceptible to manipulation. The effects of "gassing" aren't very convincing since the fast deposition, IMHO, doesn't "look right". Little that PCGS can do - a great number of these holders have been cracked open, and other that locating these frauds made from the survivors, and entering information into the database, there's not much that can be done.

What about toning coins that consistantly pass secure plus

BAJJERFAN

@Beneteau said:

@BlindedByEgo said:
Many of the rattler and early-gen OGH coins are susceptible to manipulation. The effects of "gassing" aren't very convincing since the fast deposition, IMHO, doesn't "look right". Little that PCGS can do - a great number of these holders have been cracked open, and other that locating these frauds made from the survivors, and entering information into the database, there's not much that can be done.

What about toning coins that consistantly pass secure plus

Secure service doesn't have anything to do with toning. It focuses on surface relief. If you add something of equal thickness to the "whole" surface it doesn't change the relief one whit.

Insider2

@Beneteau said: "What about toning coins that consistantly pass secure plus?"

Welcome, its nice of you to start becoming more active around here. This certainly is an interesting topic you have raised. There is a discussion going on in another thread.

While I don't doubt you know what you are posting, I'm hopeful you'll provide us with your qualifications and evidence for the accusation you have posted above.

Perhaps a "before and after" in a "Secure Plus" holder. Then you could convince me that it happens as I'm completely ignorant on the subject and wish to learn all I can. Thanks in advance.

Beneteau

@Insider2 said:
@Beneteau said: "What about toning coins that consistantly pass secure plus?"

Welcome, its nice of you to start becoming more active around here. This certainly is an interesting topic you have raised. There is a discussion going on in another thread.

While I don't doubt you know what you are posting, I'm hopeful you'll provide us with your qualifications and evidence for the accusation you have posted above.

Perhaps a "before and after" in a "Secure Plus" holder. Then you could convince me that it happens as I'm completely ignorant on the subject and wish to learn all I can. Thanks in advance.

Thank you.
I generally dont post here as in the past I've seen threads just spiral out of control. I'm a huge collector of toned coins and have been for close to two decades. I've seen the boom and bust in toned coins, the AT vs NT debate rage on. I own or have owned some of the biggest toners out here and absoloutly love toned coins. I normally can simply blow off the negatives people post about toned coins but now it's really disheartening. I'm seeing things these days that would basically make my collection and all the time and effort I've invested in coins worthless. I've seen people tone coins inside of ten minutes send them off to pcgs and have them graded no problem. When secure plus came out I was hoping this would solve this but I've realized it does basically nothing to stop artificial toning and it's just a bummer. Just trying to think of something to help put an end to some of it so decided to post a couple things and get a feel for the response. As I had assumed the response is kinda well, " yup it happens" with no real effort to stop it.

Beneteau

@FSF said:

I don't follow the toned market very closely but when did a "bust" ever occur in the last 20 years?

Well depends on definition of bust I guess. When sunny wood sold his Morgan collection several years ago there was quite some concern in that market. They kept going pretty well for several more years and recently they are pretty blah compared to even just 5 years ago. Just my personal opinion but they are not pulling the money currently that they once did

ricko

Your premise is, of course, correct.... there are many AT coins in slabs... When tarnished with the proper chemicals, it is, effectively, authentic tarnish, though done in minutes instead of years....and yes, we have seen it done 'in slabs'...many threads here on examples....You are correct, when more and more people understand this, the premiums will reduce, and possibly, at some point, vanish. Cheers, RickO

clarkbar04

Perhaps you could post a trueview of one you saw "made"? You could hide the cert # to "protect the innocent".

Soldi

@ricko said:
Your premise is, of course, correct.... there are many AT coins in slabs... When tarnished with the proper chemicals, it is, effectively, authentic tarnish, though done in minutes instead of years....and yes, we have seen it done 'in slabs'...many threads here on examples....You are correct, when more and more people understand this, the premiums will reduce, and possibly, at some point, vanish. Cheers, RickO

It seems this one dealer out there (nameless) has all his coins a shade of golden color. Could it just be a collection? I don' know, but I don't think so. Then of course I look through auction records found and saw one of the coins a completely different color then, the color at auction. I mean to say the coin was the same coin, same holder, but a dingy light grey not too appealing auctioned coin and now, for sale as a golden colored pretty coin.
_Is this the color we are posting about? _

BAJJERFAN

@Soldi said:

@ricko said:
Your premise is, of course, correct.... there are many AT coins in slabs... When tarnished with the proper chemicals, it is, effectively, authentic tarnish, though done in minutes instead of years....and yes, we have seen it done 'in slabs'...many threads here on examples....You are correct, when more and more people understand this, the premiums will reduce, and possibly, at some point, vanish. Cheers, RickO

It seems this one dealer out there (nameless) has all his coins a shade of golden color. Could it just be a collection? I don' know, but I don't think so. Then of course I look through auction records found and saw one of the coins a completely different color then, the color at auction. I mean to say the coin was the same coin, same holder, but a dingy light grey not too appealing auctioned coin and now, for sale as a golden colored pretty coin.
_Is this the color we are posting about? _

Have you ever bought one and got a pleasing golden colored coin or is he just doctorin his pics?

Soldi

I bought a few from him and Yes they are as I described. When I decided to part with a few of them a dealer asked me "Did you buy a collection" "They are all so much alike" I thought they were from a collection. I described them here to see if that is the color we are talking about. I thought they were pleasing.

Beneteau

@clarkbar04 said:
Perhaps you could post a trueview of one you saw "made"? You could hide the cert # to "protect the innocent".

While I would love to however the drama of doing is more than I would like to get into. People will be upset, owner of said coins will be upset , people will call me a liar and so fourth. There has been so called "moon" money spent for some of these. 1k for a coin that's 10 dollars not toned and so fourth. I dont want to upset anyone . I was just seeing if pcgs would be interested in knowing exactly how its done. What they look like, what colors depending on the mint, how long it takes, what colors depending on the metal, proof vs mint state differences, what holders it can be done to and so on. The amount of fraud in this particular segment is absoloutly astounding and will absoloutly fool the most knowledgeable toned coin enthusiast.

Beneteau

@ricko said:
Your premise is, of course, correct.... there are many AT coins in slabs... When tarnished with the proper chemicals, it is, effectively, authentic tarnish, though done in minutes instead of years....and yes, we have seen it done 'in slabs'...many threads here on examples....You are correct, when more and more people understand this, the premiums will reduce, and possibly, at some point, vanish. Cheers, RickO

I completely agree, unfortunately its s segment of collecting that I thoroughly enjoy I could write a book on the subject, explain exactly what is taking place but I feel it would not only affect the artificial ones but also so many that are truly natural, that's not my intention. So I was hoping the host maybe had some thoughts or ideas but idk

Soldi

VF 35 PCGS

Soldi

64+ PCGS

Soldi

MS 67 PCGS

Beneteau

@Soldi said:

64+ PCGS

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

The white balence is off on those images, there is absoloutly nothing you can tell about toning from those images.

Soldi

Not unless of course you read the thread...........and see that I bought them and they look like this

Who is this ? Ansel Adams?

The question is NOT the photography the question is ............................Is that the color? Others are speaking of.

Beneteau

@Soldi said:
Not unless of course you read the thread...........and see that I bought them and they look like this

Who is this ? Ansel Adams?

The question is NOT the photography the question is ............................Is that the color? Others are speaking of.

I dont know who ansell Adam's is, I'm simply pointing out the pictures on those are completely off. If you purchased them then post better images , no idea what your accusations are about as all I said was the pictures were off?

Beneteau

@Soldi said:
Not unless of course you read the thread...........and see that I bought them and they look like this

Who is this ? Ansel Adams?

The question is NOT the photography the question is ............................Is that the color? Others are speaking of.

Haha, I just googled anselAdam's, I didnt realize you were referring to the photographer, I'm a photographer by trade so I may have an idea of image manipulation

Soldi

There are none. I'm asking is that the color they "the others on this thread" are asking about. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
LOL joking

ps Google Ansel Adams

Beneteau

@Soldi said:
There are none. I'm asking is that the color they "the others on this thread" are asking about. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
LOL joking

ps Google Ansel Adams

I'm an idiot , I did Google him and that was my first thought but then thought you were maybe referring to a dealer or something. Do you happen to have better images ? The white balence is off hence the overall yellow tone. Do they look very similar in hand? When people artificially tone coins with a chemical like used for gasing, it's very hard and just pure luck for them to achieve a monotone tone. I dont believe the coins you posted were gassed based on this. I wouldnt think AT based solely on the fact that there is not much of a premium for that toning if any.

Hydrant

Beneteau, you say you are "a photographer by trade" yet you don't know who Ansel Adams is? Humm? Anyway, he was a man who took some really nice landscape type pictures in his time. Books have been written about him. And there are several books with just his photos in them. If you get the chance you might want to look it up. He was in some ways like you; "a photographer by trade."

Beneteau

@Hydrant said:
Beneteau, you say you are "a photographer by trade" yet you don't know who Ansel Adams is? Humm? Anyway, he was a man who took some really nice landscape type pictures in his time. Books have been written about him. And there are several books with just his photos in them. If you get the chance you might want to look it up. He was in some ways like you; "a photographer by trade."

Again I assumed he was referring to a coin dealer not the world famous photographer.

clarkbar04

The toning on those coins posted above is worth zero premium so I don't think that is what the OP is talking about.

@Beneteau , perhaps you can send me an example via PM, I like to pretend like I know what I'm doing so I'd just like to see if it is something I'd be fooled by.